Life jackets and Bouyancy aids - worse than they used to be

[dylanwinter]

pleased to have shocked a hack

I can't believe I'm reading this.
I hate excessive H&S as much as the next man but to suggerst a buoyancy aid is better a proper lifejacket for use on a cruising boat is madness. There is a reason why lifejackets are the way they are and that is because they do the job properly when there aren't safety boats about, loads of other dinghies and a shore a few yards distant. Modern lifejackets are light, compact and very easty to put on and wear. Even I have begun to use one even when its not blowing old boots at night.

It was when I did my last Sea Survival course that the full benefit of a lifejacket with crutch strap and face protector was fully driven home. Even in a swimming pool the face protector made life a lot more comfortable and the crutch strap mean you could swim in it without it trying to come up over your nose and you could be lifted into the liferaft by it.
Sorry, I'm not often shocked by a thread here, but I am by this one.

well, I am pleased to have shocked a journalist

sometimes that is a hard thing to do and perhaps the magazines should occasionally try to shock their readers.

I often wonder though, if being a specialist hack, sometimes gives you a distorted view of risks and the costs of mitigating them.

When I was a hack at farmers Weekely I had some pretty out of touch ideas about machinery, maintenance and safety.

If I do die by falling overboard sans life jacket/bouyancy aide then there might be a few told you so's on the forums. Although driving to the boat is always going to be much more dangerous than almost anything I can invent to do on the boat.

However, there is a parallel here to the bike helmet thing

By making bike helmets compulsory some lives are certainly saved

however, lots of people, such as myself, would stop cycling

and there is little doubt that cycling every day with the dog will lengthen my life

If, by chasing cheap, light, warm, cool, comfortable bouyancy aids such as those made from flotherchoc off the market means that fewer people will wear safety gear then that is surely not a good thing.

I can quite see that the full spec harnessed life jackets with epirb, crutch protector, whistles, spray hoods and coffee maker are jolly good things to have - but they really come at one heck of a price.

I think that the device on my outboard that stops it from being started while in gear was actually a bigger risk to my safety than not having it on the outboard at all.


Just curious James - have you been on many courses since you stopped being a salaried hack and have to pay for them?

Dylan

 

[chanelyacht]

The things with collars are life jackets,

No they're not, they're bouyancy aids.

 

[chanelyacht]

Quite a good point -- while it is possible to get around wearing an inflated lifejacket, you're more mobile in a buoyancy aid.

As for self-rescue, I've climbed out over the transom of a large inflatable boat wearing an inflated 150N lifejacket without too much trouble, using the outboard as a ladder. Water was 5C. I did think at the time it would be harder in a 270N one.

Which is why lifejackets are designed to be deflated and topped up by the user as necessary.

 

[wadget]

If, by chasing cheap, light, warm, cool, comfortable bouyancy aids such as those made from flotherchoc off the market means that fewer people will wear safety gear then that is surely not a good thing.

http://www.crew-safe.co.uk/acatalog/Crewsaver-CSR-Buoyancy-Aid.html
cheap light comfortable etc. except its its actualy approved as a BA and actualy works properly.

I think that the device on my outboard that stops it from being started while in gear was actually a bigger risk to my safety than not having it on the outboard at all.

Could you explain how please?

 

[dylanwinter]

it is a fail safe device

http://www.crew-safe.co.uk/acatalog/Crewsaver-CSR-Buoyancy-Aid.html
cheap light comfortable etc. except its its actualy approved as a BA and actualy works properly.



Could you explain how please?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYgV5OA1BwY

it failed and stopped me from starting the engine just as we were drifting towards the Trent falls.

it looks like after though bolt-on engineering designed by Emmet and approved by a running with scizzors bureacrat as fit for purpose.

It was a bit of a rush removing the Tohatsu and replacing it with the back up Honda.

I have now disabled the safety feature on the basis that an engine that won't start when you need it to is a bigger risk than an engine designed to not start.

I capsized many times wearing the cheapo french bubblewrap bouyancy aide - and I survived. It did appear to keep me afloat. If only I had known that it did not work I would never have worn one.

Dylan

 

[jamesjermain]

To your final point: Yes. I have to keep these things up to date for the small amount of offshore racing I do.

I have limited experience of buoyancy aids but such as it is, I think my not-all-that-expensive Seago lifejacket is actually more comfortable to wear and easier to work in. Perhaps if I was doing no more that pottering up and down the Tamar river I would opt for a buoyancy aid but actually, I propably wouldn't bother with either. ( pausses for cries of 'shame')

You are right that working closely with with a sport or industry you can get the feeling that you must have all the very latest stuff and forget how things are actually done in the real world.

I remember when Andrew Bray was buying and fitting out his Sadler 34, Dash, he came into the office one day and said: 'Right - it's the KISS principle from now on'. We laughted loudly because we knew him too well. Sure enough, a month or so later Dash hit the water with every conceivable gismo then available - 'all just for research purposes, you know'.

 

[lw395]

I do wonder if the standard of LJ's is getting worse.
I have been over the side a couple of times racing small dayboats, as well as doing the sea survival course, and pratting around doing 'man overboard' games wearing a drysuit and oilies.

My old LJ, a Baltic with harness, works totally effectively without a crutch strap.
I have experimented a bit, it is very hard to fall out of it, even when being craned out of the water by the lift strap, even with the buckle looser than it should be.
The newer ones, of various brands, seem to be a different shape, although superficially the same style, with the main horizontal strap much higher up. These things are not complete without a crutch strap, which is a hindrance when crewing the front end of a dayboat.
Dinghy sailing, I wear a BA, which again has no crutch strap, it has been amply tested in some high speed capsizes, head first broken toestrap incidents, every which way. I don't know anyone who has had one come off, despite lots of people being relative casual about tightening the straps.

So yes, I think the designs could be improved.
For inshore and dinghy use, a BA can be better, for one thing taking an LJ ashore in the tender risks theft and damage.
When I go offshore, I like to know the LJ has had a quiet life, not being abused and abraded the way regular keelboat races wears your kit.

 

[dylanwinter]

good points

So yes, I think the designs could be improved.
For inshore and dinghy use, a BA can be better, for one thing taking an LJ ashore in the tender risks theft and damage.
When I go offshore, I like to know the LJ has had a quiet life, not being abused and abraded the way regular keelboat races wears your kit.

you are correct

on the wearing out the proper jobs and also for the dinghy

I am going to dig out my old BA and keep it on the boat for every day creek crawling use and as a handy cushion in the cockpit

Dylan

 

[Searush]

Horses for course innit?

Canoeing & Dinghy sailing; I have waistcoat style bouancy aids

Tender use; generally nowt, cos I only use it in calm sheltered spots, but if there are strong tides, strong winds or some other risk factor I will use a BA or fully auto L/J depending on how risky I think it is.

Cruising; again, generally nowt, but if conditions require it, auto L/Js are doled out to all.

Swimming off the boat; I only ever wear a cossie, but the family tend to wear wet suits & B/A's are available for those who want them.

I also have a "Float coat" bought at a boat show one year when I needed new foulies & it was the same price as a waterproof jacket. It has an internal air bladder that is manually inflated as (& if) required. I know it works cos I used it on an RNLI liferaft demo in a pool, but it is now about 20 years old & dobbed with paint & a/foul. But the partially inflated air bladder does add significant warmth when winter boating without affecting manouverability..

 

[YachtAllegro]

A simple, cheap as chips flotation vest that is easy to put on, light to wear and lasts until you can see that it is worn out seems a better bet than a device that might or might not self inflate depending on wether it has passed its sell by date.

While I would accept its not cheap as chips, my self-inflating lifejacket is easy to put on, light to wear, and lasts until you can see that the use by date on the cylinder is past and it needs replacing. And gives me the reassurance that whether its a slip from the dinghy on a calm day or a blow from the boom in a storm I'll have the best chance of still being afloat and alive when pulled out of the water.

Apart from the cost issue I really struggle to see a strong argument against a modern self-inflating lifejacket. And even considering the cost, its no more expensive than a reasonable fleece or a really quite cheap raincoat. Mine is worn whenever I'm afloat and underway and I barely notice I'm wearing it.

Cheers
Patrick

 

[jellylegs]

Can I ask where your Mirror Offshore has gone to? it is not in Wells. Also, how long did it take you to sail the Hunter Minstrel to the Humber?

Lifejackets are a pain in general. Best to just stay on board.

 

[dylanwinter]

the mirror has gone to the Blackwater

Can I ask where your Mirror Offshore has gone to? it is not in Wells. Also, how long did it take you to sail the Hunter Minstrel to the Humber?

Lifejackets are a pain in general. Best to just stay on board.

the mirror has gone to the Blackwater - on a trailer - facing backwards bought by Applescuffs of this parish

I shall see the slug again one day

he is a better engineer than I am and is making great progress on the gear change - using 2 x 4 to knock it out of gear.

I left Wells at about seven in the morning and got to the mouth of the Humber by about four in the afternoon

spent the night in the little drying harbour on the west bank


reaching nearly all the way

lovely trip

needless to say there are some films

17 of them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcvKPabL9DU

the humber is wonderful

a much under-estimated estuary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVRdf0seHxY

 

[bitbaltic]

While I would accept its not cheap as chips, my self-inflating lifejacket is easy to put on, light to wear, and lasts until you can see that the use by date on the cylinder is past and it needs replacing. And gives me the reassurance that whether its a slip from the dinghy on a calm day or a blow from the boom in a storm I'll have the best chance of still being afloat and alive when pulled out of the water.

Apart from the cost issue I really struggle to see a strong argument against a modern self-inflating lifejacket. And even considering the cost, its no more expensive than a reasonable fleece or a really quite cheap raincoat. Mine is worn whenever I'm afloat and underway and I barely notice I'm wearing it.

Cheers
Patrick

+1, Absolutely agree

 

[jellylegs]

Well said, james Jermain
I think some of these posts are here to provoke a response, and attract attention.

 

[dylanwinter]

not mine

Well said, james Jermain
I think some of these posts are here to provoke a response, and attract attention.

I would never say anything just for getting a reaction

all opinions genuinely held

if it was any other way then I would use a pseudonym to hide my identity

Dylan

 

[bitbaltic]

In my opinion you are better off with a 'buoyancy aid' if you are single handed and end up in the water anywhere near your boat.....

I used to do a lot of sea kayaking (including across the Bristol Channel from Watchet to Barry) and, like almost all sea kayakers, wore a buoyancy aid in preference to a 'lifejacket' precisely because if I'd capsized (which is always a distinct possibility) and failed to roll myself straight back up, I would have needed to be able to be able to both swim and climb back into the kayak.

The point- as you say- is that you have to end up somewhere near your boat. I've no experience of kayaks so assume they will drift along with you if you fall out of them, giving you some chance of getting back to the vessel. A yacht under sail will tear away from you at maybe 6kn if you fall overboard. Perhaps you are a strong enough swimmer that you will chase down the yacht on account of being unhindered by an inflated lifejacket and speeded on your way by some bubble wrap. Indeed, on this basis there is no reason even for the unnecessary hindrance of a buoyancy aid. I also suspect that- very reasonably- a kayaker's weather window for crossing the Bristol Channel might be very different to a yachtsman's. Going overboard from a kayak in a F2 wind from wherever over neaps surely would not be comparable to pitching over a yacht in a F6 SW wind over spring ebb. Under the latter circumstances I would certainly not believe that a buoyancy aid would allow me to 'get back to my boat quickly'- even if I'd left the boat anchored.

 

[salinia]

We have buoyancy aids from our Enterprise sailing days of long ago, and always thought they were easy to wear comfortable and warm...we still have them and are thinking about using them again because the replacement life jackets we bought quite a few years ago albeit they looked the biz at the time may not now be so as they have never been serviced except for a wash in fresh water. We had decided to either replace them next season with the latest on offer or go back to the bouyancy aids, but before making that decision we have decided to test them. When we do test them simply by yanking down on the cord I will do a video of them. One is about 12 years old and the other 15 years old it will be a kind of expose on a couple who just keep sailing year on year with blind faith in their lifejackets and have never needed to put them to the test.
BTW Skipper wears a bouyancy aid.

 

[dylanwinter]

I have three

We have buoyancy aids from our Enterprise sailing days of long ago, and always thought they were easy to wear comfortable and warm...we still have them and are thinking about using them again because the replacement life jackets we bought quite a few years ago albeit they looked the biz at the time may not now be so as they have never been serviced except for a wash in fresh water. We had decided to either replace them next season with the latest on offer or go back to the bouyancy aids, but before making that decision we have decided to test them. When we do test them simply by yanking down on the cord I will do a video of them. One is about 12 years old and the other 15 years old it will be a kind of expose on a couple who just keep sailing year on year with blind faith in their lifejackets and have never needed to put them to the test.
BTW Skipper wears a bouyancy aid.

that would brilliant

do it on a video for sure

I ddi drop one two years ago as I was loading stuff into a dinghy and it went off and inflated

which was re-assuring

I tried re-arming it - and could not get a kit

out of date

no longer available

bumma

D

Ps - sold my Enterprise to but the Slug - sob!

 

[bitbaltic]

We have buoyancy aids from our Enterprise sailing days of long ago, [...]...we still have them and are thinking about using them again because the [...] life jackets we bought quite a few years ago [...] have never been serviced except for a wash in fresh water [...] a couple who just keep sailing year on year with blind faith in their lifejackets and have never needed to put them to the test.

Remarkable. Your lifejackets are old; have never been serviced; have been washed once (or twice): and have never been put to the test (easily done by firing one), so on this basis it's questionable if they will ever really be needed.

It's a good thing you have some of those old buoyancy aids still around, and aren't susceptible to all that Lifejacket hype.

 

[fishermantwo]

I was just flicking through PBO from April 2000 where they tested all the expensive inflatables. In every case they did not turn the "victim" face up. It seems that the wearing of a foul weather jacket has enough buoyancy to counteract the inflatable jacket and in some cases turned the victim face down. It seems there is small print on the labels to that effect.

Sadly we had two deaths last week in Queensland where a boat capsized trapping two people under it. One adult and one child both wearing jackets. Of course at the same time we had 4 adults capsize a dinghy at about midnight 15 miles from here. None had jackets, one got ashore the other 3 bodies have just been recovered.