Lessons from the wreck of the Torrey Canyon

[Kukri]

Years ago I went into the old Kelvin Hughes in the Minories to buy some charts and while I was waiting to correct them I browsed their bookshelves. I remember noting that the UK Merchant Marine regulations filled two full shelves, which the Liberians ones were a single modest volume.

Do they actually enquire or even care if one of theirs goes down, or do they shrug and make a mental note not to expect the cheque next year?

The Liberian Register had a moment of glory in the later Seventies when the owners, advised by Dr Frank Wiswall iirc, decided (correctly!) that the way to improve the reputation of a Register was to hold the best Inquries. They hired a retired British Admiralty Judge, Sir Gordon Wilmer, and suddenly Liberian inquiries were very serious indeed.

But then Master Sergeant Samuel Doe mounted a coup and it was all over.

 

[Hydrozoan]

Do you know where in Aeschylus that comes from? (WIkiquote has it among Aeschylus misattributions.)
I have been trying to find the source, but the earliest verifiable record I can find dates back to 1916, although Samuel Johnson expressed a similar idea in 1758. "Among the calamities of war may be justly numbered the diminution of the love of truth, by the falsehoods which interest dictates and credulity encourages."

I think that there may well be no identifiable single first source, for such a widespread notion. Different people in different countries at different times may say very similar things, in what one might perhaps regard as a quotational analogue of convergent evolution in biology.

 

[JumbleDuck]

The Liberian Register had a moment of glory in the later Seventies when the owners, advised by Dr Frank Wiswall iirc, decided (correctly!) that the way to improve the reputation of a Register was to hold the best Inquries. They hired a retired British Admiralty Judge, Sir Gordon Wilmer, and suddenly Liberian inquiries were very serious indeed.

But then Master Sergeant Samuel Doe mounted a coup and it was all over.

Thanks - that's very interesting.

 

[dom]

The Liberian Register had a moment of glory in the later Seventies when the owners, advised by Dr Frank Wiswall iirc, decided (correctly!) that the way to improve the reputation of a Register was to hold the best Inquries. They hired a retired British Admiralty Judge, Sir Gordon Wilmer, and suddenly Liberian inquiries were very serious indeed.

But then Master Sergeant Samuel Doe mounted a coup and it was all over.

Liberia is indeed an amazing place, quite a few charities are also based there freeing them to do what they do best unhindered by intrusive bureaucracy

 

[JumbleDuck]

Liberia is indeed an amazing place, quite a few charities are also based there freeing them to do what they do best unhindered by intrusive bureaucracy

 

[Kukri]

Thanks - that's very interesting.

Doe fired the American managers of the Liberian Register and appointed a new firm; the former managers went on to start the Marshall Islands Register.

 

[dom]

Deleted

Wow, utterly disgusting: I knew many of these charities were frauds, with some embezzling the money, but beneath the smokescreen of helping people some are alleged to have gone even further.

 

[Resolution]

Wow, utterly disgusting: I knew many of these charities were frauds, with some embezzling the money, but beneath the smokescreen of helping people some seem to have gone even further.

Dom
Whilst it doesn't sound good and presumably he (she?) would not have been arrested without some evidence, I think we should stick to our fundamental principle of innocent until proven guilty. Having grown up in the time of McCarthyism and of the Cultural revolution, the system of judicial inquiry that we have in the UK is really worth keeping.
Peter

 

[dom]

Dom
Whilst it doesn't sound good and presumably he (she?) would not have been arrested without some evidence, I think we should stick to our fundamental principle of innocent until proven guilty. Having grown up in the time of McCarthyism and of the Cultural revolution, the system of judicial inquiry that we have in the UK is really worth keeping.
Peter

You're right; added the word 'alleged' to original post.

 

[Kukri]

Talking of enquiries:

https://splash247.com/stellar-daisy-vdr-recovered/

The Seabed Constructor is owned by Swires, and chartered to Ocean Infinity, both British companies who wouldn't thank you for saying so.

 

[alan_d]

I think that there may well be no identifiable single first source, for such a widespread notion. Different people in different countries at different times may say very similar things, in what one might perhaps regard as a quotational analogue of convergent evolution in biology.

Yes, I think you are probably right, but if people wish attribute it to Aeschylus they should have some grounds for doing so. Ideally they should be able to point to one of his extant writings which contains something which could be translated to convey that meaning or, failing that, a quotation or attribution from another author in antiquity. As it is, I can find only unreferenced assertions from the Internet Age.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Dunno which Staff College you went to, 'grumpy', but I seem to recall an elderly Greek playwright, Aeschylus, coming up with “In war, truth is the first casualty” some 2500 years ago. While I didn't actually get to see that play myself, that thought seems to have stuck.....

We must be at war then, given the carp we are fed by politicians and the meeja at the moment. That lecture was actually at the Cranwell Institute (the civvie bit) if I remember rightly - it was for us weapons systems techies and industry as much as the aircrew and I am now confident that I could set a leaking oil tanker on fire given the right kit and a pilot/nav capable of hitting the side of a very large barn. I wasn't allowed in Staff College 'cause they wouldn't let me be a pilot and I didn't want to sit in the back, though I did seem to end up in places I wasn't technically supposed to be sometimes.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Wow, utterly disgusting: I knew many of these charities were frauds, with some embezzling the money, but beneath the smokescreen of helping people some are alleged to have gone even further.

Unfortunately some people choose to work for NGOs and charities as a well of getting access to vulnerable people - as the Oxfam scandal in Haiti made clear. Worse still, the sector has been far too ready in the past to allow people with chequered pasts and dubious reputations to move from post to post and from country to country without ever being held to account.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

We must be at war then, given the carp we are fed by politicians and the meeja at the moment. That lecture was actually at the Cranwell Institute (the civvie bit) if I remember rightly - it was for us weapons systems techies and industry as much as the aircrew and I am now confident that I could set a leaking oil tanker on fire given the right kit and a pilot/nav capable of hitting the side of a very large barn. I wasn't allowed in Staff College 'cause they wouldn't let me be a pilot and I didn't want to sit in the back, though I did seem to end up in places I wasn't technically supposed to be sometimes.

Sorry, Cranfield of course, not Cranwell. I've got staff colleges on the brain now..

 

[oldmanofthehills]

We must be at war then, given the carp we are fed by politicians and the meeja at the moment. That lecture was actually at the Cranwell Institute (the civvie bit) if I remember rightly - it was for us weapons systems techies and industry as much as the aircrew and I am now confident that I could set a leaking oil tanker on fire given the right kit and a pilot/nav capable of hitting the side of a very large barn.

Sadly the military desire to practice setting ships on fire - an admirable idea in times of war - was completely non-optimum for dealing with an oil spill and just spread the muck further onto Cornish coastlines. Might have worked for refined but did not work for crude. Mind you the use of detergents later was no great success so its not just the military that can cock it up.

A unique combination of merchantile failure, military failure, and civil failure.

 

[Hydrozoan]

Yes, I think you are probably right, but if people wish attribute it to Aeschylus they should have some grounds for doing so. Ideally they should be able to point to one of his extant writings which contains something which could be translated to convey that meaning or, failing that, a quotation or attribution from another author in antiquity. As it is, I can find only unreferenced assertions from the Internet Age.

Agreed.

 

[Stemar]

Sadly the military desire to practice setting ships on fire - an admirable idea in times of war - was completely non-optimum for dealing with an oil spill and just spread the muck further onto Cornish coastlines. Might have worked for refined but did not work for crude. Mind you the use of detergents later was no great success so its not just the military that can cock it up.

A unique combination of merchantile failure, military failure, and civil failure.

IIRC, some later research suggested that the best thing to do with the available technology was nothing at all. The sea is quite good at cleaning up oil in manageable quantities. Blowing the thing up just made sure the quantities were unmanageable and, long term, the detergents were more of an ecological problem than the oil

 

[JumbleDuck]

IIRC, some later research suggested that the best thing to do with the available technology was nothing at all. The sea is quite good at cleaning up oil in manageable quantities. Blowing the thing up just made sure the quantities were unmanageable and, long term, the detergents were more of an ecological problem than the oil

The Exxon Valdez clean up caused far more ecological damage (deep sterilisation of beaches by steam) than the spill itself, and the Braer spill was dispersed almost at once by a storm.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

The Greeks say its Hubris; who the gods would destroy they first make mad. A idiot ships captain, gung-ho military, grandstanding politicians. Containment of excess and natural degradation of the oil was what was needed. West Penwith and the poor Isles of Scilly suffered catastrophic pollution while some of those responsible walked away from their folly. Sadly I fear we have only learned to deal with the last disaster not the next one.

 

[penberth3]

The Liberian Register had a moment of glory in the later Seventies when the owners, advised by Dr Frank Wiswall iirc, decided (correctly!) that the way to improve the reputation of a Register was to hold the best Inquries. They hired a retired British Admiralty Judge, Sir Gordon Wilmer, and suddenly Liberian inquiries were very serious indeed.

But then Master Sergeant Samuel Doe mounted a coup and it was all over.

And a few years later it was all over for Sgt Doe.