Length of string question - annual running costs

scruff said:
Thanks all - the 1k pa is excluding mooring /winter ashore/ Cranage - that's easy to know the cost as it's published on the net. That's already accounted for.

I've the 10 years I'd expect to get new sails (~£3k) and a new sprayhood / sail cover and dodgers (~£2k) which left ~£5k for antifouling, anodes, filters etc. it was this cost I was trying to get a rough guage for. I'll admit I omited to think of new running & standing rigging...
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Most of the points have already been covered, it depends, but if you are a relaxed sort, either:

a) Get a boat with all the main points covered

or

b) Be willing to let some jobs lie undone

Then you would be able to do it quite well on 1k per year,

The average ragged legged sailor does not replace standing rigging and sails almost last forever if you are willing to put up with them. I have never replaced any running rigging through wear in 40 years of sailing. Basic engine consumables cost almost nothing, 1 tin of antifoul 40 quid. Most other sailing stuff can be obtained for next to nowt - secondhand. You do have to be adept at DIY though. Buy a sewing machine.

Here is a practical example:

I decided to replace my stern propshaft bellows, nothing wrong and they proved to be in perfect condition, but cost me 100 quid. In the process of doing this I also fitted two new engine mounts - again nothing wrong but looked a bit yakki. I also fitted a new stern tube bearing - ditto. Whilst I was at it I fitted a exhaust injection bend, the old could have been welded but I fitted a new one.
.......Sooooo - the bill for being a fusspot came to c £450. What I actually needed to spend was 30 quid.

Same goes for almost everything, you can navigate with a £5000 seatalk system or buy a £50 handheld off Ebay. Yo can, if you want, replace a saildrive seal but will it really fail? Almost certainly not.
Third party insurance is the way to go for the cheapskate, your loss is limited to the price of a rough secondhand motor vehicle.
 
RupertW said:
But this isn't a job - I guess we've spent about 25k over the last 8 years but I'd hate to add it all up properly or I wouldn't have bought it.
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Forgive me Rupert fund my boat from income not a big block of gold in the bank and apply the same sort of methodology to everything I spend cash on, after all I want to put a roof over my family, feed them and enjoy a glass of Highland Park from time to time.
 
pvb said:
So you can do all the maintenance/repairs on a £5K boat for only £500 a year?
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Perhaps a somewhat extreme example ?

On a Mobo excluding fixed known costs such as insurance and mooring ....DIY and averaged over ownership of boat ......Yup. 50K boat 10% PA not that far off.
 
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How long is a piece of string indeed....

Two ways of looking after a boat..... programmed maintenance or breakdown maintenance... I prefer the former but am no stranger to the latter....

I have owned my Westerly Sealord for 25 years... since she was 8 YO or so.
Mast fell down a few weeks after I bought her so I started off with a complete new rig.

So... since then... and I won't try to put dollars on it nor include new 'toys' that I buy just because I can.....

Standing rigging replaced in 2004 and again in 2014/16... most recent time included all new turnbuckles etc.

New mainsail in 2006... due for a new one this year. New genoa in 2014.

Engine original MD17D but rebuilt in 2000 and again (partial) in 2007 ( long story ).... $5 an hour for labour first time... beer second time. Injectors done in 2010 and again in 2014..
New calorifier in 2007.
New Eberspacher in 2016
New Trojan batts about every five years.
Headliners in 2000. Upholstery about the same time.
Replaced Vetus manual windlass in 1995 with similar... replaced with Muir electric in 2003.
Dodger replaced in 2000, 2011, 2015, sailcover ditto.
Original cooker replaced in 1994.... replacement replaced in 2015.
Danfoss fridge kit in 2009 and 2017..
All pumps replaced in 2007.... all 8 or so..... 'the year of the pump'.
All Stowe instruments replaced over time.
Whitlock Mamba completely overhauled a few times... new autopilot drive last year.

Then there was the big overhaul in NZ in 2015....... new treadmaster, keel bolts etc etc....

And she was repainted above the waterline in about 2000 and is being repainted as we speak.....

I think thats most of it... someone else may like to run the numbers.... I think it comes to more than UKP1K pa
 
I have a Moody 31 1984. I have had her 12 years now and have kept detailed records of all costs and it is quite surprising. I replaced the sails when I bought her and have new sails coming this year. I have replaced the cooker, windlass, canopy, dodgers, stack pack, fitted wheel steering, 2 plotters, autohelm, all the running and standing rigging, pumps, shaft seal, kiwi prop, and many more items. It averages out just over £2000 per annum which excludes marina, lifting, insurance, antifouling, clothing, club costs, servicing(by me), fuel, electricity. Of course you do not need to do all those items.
The all up cost for my boat is £6551 per annum.
Frightening isn't it.
 
It all depends on what you can do yourself and what you have to pay other to do.

Annual engine service - £50 if you can do it yourself or £250 if you get it done (plus whatever else the "find").

Scrub & Antifoul - £150 if you can put it onto a free or low-cost scrubbing grid and do it yourself or £1,000 if you have it lifted out and have it all done for you.

Bits that inevitably break - budget £200 if you can fix it yourself or £1,000 if you can't.

As you can see, the big difference is the cost of paying for labour. If you can do things yourself, then £1k/yr is fine. If not, it's not enough.
 
oldgit said:
Perhaps a somewhat extreme example ?

On a Mobo excluding fixed known costs such as insurance and mooring ....DIY and averaged over ownership of boat ......Yup. 50K boat 10% PA not that far off.
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I look after a few mobos, varying ages and values. So you're saying that the older Princess, that's worth about £70k will cost £7k a year in maintenance, whilst the Sunseeker, which is much newer and worth about £750k will cost £75k per year ?

I obviously need to put my prices up, substantially.
 
Sandy said:
Forgive me Rupert fund my boat from income not a big block of gold in the bank and apply the same sort of methodology to everything I spend cash on, after all I want to put a roof over my family, feed them and enjoy a glass of Highland Park from time to time.
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Well really, what a sense of priorities
 
PaulRainbow said:
I look after a few mobos, varying ages and values. So you're saying that the older Princess, that's worth about £70k will cost £7k a year in maintenance, whilst the Sunseeker, which is much newer and worth about £750k will cost £75k per year ?

I obviously need to put my prices up, substantially.
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and then to the other extreme.

If something goes wrong with your average £70K Princess lets say gearbox, the owner ( if owners in our club are any guide) will be keeping costs down by either buying used (Coastal Rides) or aftermarket equipment or perhaps getting the local repair shop involved then refitting themselves.Total cost of replacement gearbox in a P41 about £2.5K.
The Sunseeker man will be probably be picking up the phone to Sunseeker, not his spanners.
Be interested as to what you will get for 2K from Sunseeker, a pot of monogrammed gearbox paint perhaps :)
 
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I can offer the annual running costs of my son's Squib as an illustration of the cost of keeping a small simple GRP sailing keelboat on a swinging mooring in the traditional manner:


Mooring..................................... £211.00
Conservancy dues on mooring £61.20
Launching and recovery annually £ 40.00
Tender storage ashore............... £67.00
Family yacht club membership £429.00
Insurance.................................. £ 74.13
Winter storage........................... £280.00
Ropes and chandlery................ £94.00
Antifouling Paint................... £30.00
Depreciation on sails............ £200.00 *
Depreciation on clothing......... £150.00 **
Depreciation on safety gear..... £ 80.00 ***
Depreciation on covers ... £ 75.00 ****

£1,788.33 annually. Say £150 a month.

The club membership is a family membership for two adults and two children. It's included because the mooring and the lay up space are both club items, as is the dinghy storage, and it's a safe place to leave the car, etc, etc... And we get to use the club slipway and launching trolley.

* one suit every five years
** Oilskins, boots, lifejacket
*** Flares, hand held VHF
**** Cockpit cover, winter cover

The boat, being 40+ years old is considered fully depreciated.

The missing numbers are of course engine, battery, yottitronics.
 
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pvb said:
So you can do all the maintenance/repairs on a £5K boat for only £500 a year?
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I don't think my costs add up to a whole lot more than that, on a 33ft boat.
But then again we tend to only have her in commission for a few weeks, when we are actually cruising- the rest of the time we take all the canvas, sails, and upholstery off and store it at home. This should extend the life of everything by quite a few years.
I also do my own engine servicing and minor repairs, as well as other work like antifouling, varnishing etc.
I'm not hugely inclined to spend money upgrading the plotter etc- and I don't think it's terribly useful to lump discretionary upgrade spending on toys in with essential maintenance and repairs spending.
 
oldgit said:
and then to the other extreme.
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Not extremes, just more examples of how it doesn't cost 10% of the boats value for maintenance. I look after sail and mobos, from a few £k to £1m or so. None of them cost 10% of value.

It makes no sense. Take two identical boats, but one is a few years older than the other. Why would it cost less to maintain the boat with a lesser market value, just because it's older ?

If something goes wrong with your average £70K Princess lets say gearbox, the owner ( if owners in our club are any guide) will be keeping costs down by either buying used (Coastal Rides) or aftermarket equipment or perhaps getting the local repair shop involved then refitting themselves.Total cost of replacement gearbox in a P41 about £2.5K.
The Sunseeker man will be probably be picking up the phone to Sunseeker, not his spanners.
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That's also clearly not universally true, or i wouldn't be looking after it :)

Be interested as to what you will get for 2K from Sunseeker, a pot of monogrammed gearbox paint perhaps :)
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Depending on which engines are fitted, it might not be enough for the parts to service them :ambivalence:
 
The length of the piece of string you end up with will depend largely on how much string you started with.

A boat rising 40 years old could be many things....

If the previous owner has been looking after the boat in a proper fashion the new owner may get 10 years at very little cost. Thinking here of a boat with recently replaced sails and rigging, newish electronics etc.

However while the 10 years may be low cost it will start ramping up towards the end of the period and will still cost over time.

If the boat is then sold with a lot of outstanding work required he shall take the hit on the selling price and so it still costs him.
 
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