Searush
Well-Known Member
My crew have always been a liability. But then they are family, so it's my job to look after them innit? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
legal liability for crew?
- Thread starter matelot
- Start date
eidiohir
Well-Known Member
I don't know the law but my understanding was that sailing is a sport and people who willingly take part in that sport accept as a consequence the perils of that sport.I think people would have to prove that whatever happened to injure them was beyond the normal and then that negligence on the part of the skipper came into play.
Probably talking a load of tripe so I will shut up now. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
Probably talking a load of tripe so I will shut up now. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
mcframe
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Racing / cruising the problem is the same. the guests are aboard YOUR Yacht
[/ QUOTE ]
So section 105 of MSA applies?
I remember a skipper once explaining that to a slightly recalcitrant, but wide-eyed teenager who was asked to do the washing-up - his dad agreed and told him to wash things properly (to make sure we didn't get food poisoning from the next meal), otherwise we'd have to lock him in the foc'sle for "endangering the crew & vessel" /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Racing / cruising the problem is the same. the guests are aboard YOUR Yacht
[/ QUOTE ]
So section 105 of MSA applies?
I remember a skipper once explaining that to a slightly recalcitrant, but wide-eyed teenager who was asked to do the washing-up - his dad agreed and told him to wash things properly (to make sure we didn't get food poisoning from the next meal), otherwise we'd have to lock him in the foc'sle for "endangering the crew & vessel" /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
SirSnoozalot
Well-Known Member
Can you rely on the advice of one lawyer alone?
As in Courtrooms across the Country, there are usually two Lawyers agruing entirely opposite views.
As in Courtrooms across the Country, there are usually two Lawyers agruing entirely opposite views.
PeterGibbs
Well-Known Member
Q - The problem with all this is that its an issue you can happily ignore as theoretical. But if you ever are unfortunate enough to get involved with the law (as I am currently making a claim against someone's motor insurance) you rapidly realise that it has nothing to do with commonsense reason or justice, and is about as controllable as a runaway horse.
_______________________________________
The law is expressed in such precise terms, but its application is as varied as the nature of the folks who sit on the benches.
Nothing can be taken for granted - it's a balance of arguemnts presented on the day. Some call it a lottery - I couldn't possibly comment...
Try this:
If an event is unforseeable, the boat owner has a pretty good defence. If forseeable, and the crew have been warned and given means to mitigate the risk, then another good defence. If forseeable and the crew have not been prepared by the owner / person in charge, some liability /culpability may well attach. How an event measures up on these scales will influence how much of a damages claim/award is acceptable by an insurer, and how much not!
PWG.
_______________________________________
The law is expressed in such precise terms, but its application is as varied as the nature of the folks who sit on the benches.
Nothing can be taken for granted - it's a balance of arguemnts presented on the day. Some call it a lottery - I couldn't possibly comment...
Try this:
If an event is unforseeable, the boat owner has a pretty good defence. If forseeable, and the crew have been warned and given means to mitigate the risk, then another good defence. If forseeable and the crew have not been prepared by the owner / person in charge, some liability /culpability may well attach. How an event measures up on these scales will influence how much of a damages claim/award is acceptable by an insurer, and how much not!
PWG.
kengill
Well-Known Member
The most innocent and fun intended actions can have the most unpleasant outcomes.
So do you provide them with a full lifejacket adjusted to their size or do you give them a buoyancy aid- your choice.
So do you provide them with a full lifejacket adjusted to their size or do you give them a buoyancy aid- your choice.
peterb
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The most innocent and fun intended actions can have the most unpleasant outcomes.
So do you provide them with a full lifejacket adjusted to their size or do you give them a buoyancy aid- your choice.
[/ QUOTE ]
Here endeth the second lesson?
The most innocent and fun intended actions can have the most unpleasant outcomes.
So do you provide them with a full lifejacket adjusted to their size or do you give them a buoyancy aid- your choice.
[/ QUOTE ]
Here endeth the second lesson?
DRANNIE
Well-Known Member
Ok as a lawyer with knowledge of ambulances I would suggest the following tips. This is not aimed to be professional advice and the list is certainly not warranted to be entirely comprehensive (in no particular order)
1. Have insurance to cover passangers and or crew. Ensure that the insurance has legal expenses provision.
2. Note all crew on the days log and confirm they fit (that can include sober enough) to be going out with you.
3. Carry out a comprehensive safety brief and record in the log that it was completed. Its not a bad idea to have a page in the front of the log with the items/topics you will cover each time you do the brief.
4. Ensure you have a decent auto-inflate life jacket for each crew probably with spray hood and crotch straps.
5. Ensure that all of the safety equipment is in good order and that the boat is well found. If an equipment failure was forseeable because you knew it was broken or needed replacing it will be hard to argue against. That could include an engine kown to be dodgy, the faulty VHF, cracked chain plate etc. The circumstances where they lead to death or injury then you are responsible.
6. Log all accidents and take prompt action to obtain assistance.
7. Protect the crew from themselves ie drunk, ill or just unreasonable people need to be managed even if that means ending the trip. It might seem unfair on you but you are resonible for everyone regardless of how stupid/drunk they are. After all did they get drunk on your boat drinking your booze? If not you let them on drunk!
8. Dont take unecessary risks and try and approaching risk decisions from an objective point of view. Because you have a contessa 32 doesn't mean when heading out in a F8-9 the Judge will share your faith in the boat. Not many leisure sailers HAVE to cast off regardless of the weather.
In essence if you fail to meet the standard of a general body of recreational skippers, probably with reference to RYA standards you will be negligent. I can't comment on statuatory liability. The burden of evidence test is on the balance of probabilities ie 51% For criminal culpability the test is beyond reasonable doubt and this would apply to all arguments of recklessness.
Is it ambulance chasing claim culture? Well from a professional's perspective I only deal with catastrophic injuries. If I did something that was culpable or made a bad call that badly injured my son or a friend by putting in him a wheelchair or rendering brain injured then I would want to try and make amends. The easiest way to do that is to carry insurance, we all do it for the cars we drive so why not boats.
I am sure there are plenty of people who will look at the list and complain its oppressive or wrong, but I if was brought a claim to consider they the are the tortious issues I would be considering.
apologies for the long post.
1. Have insurance to cover passangers and or crew. Ensure that the insurance has legal expenses provision.
2. Note all crew on the days log and confirm they fit (that can include sober enough) to be going out with you.
3. Carry out a comprehensive safety brief and record in the log that it was completed. Its not a bad idea to have a page in the front of the log with the items/topics you will cover each time you do the brief.
4. Ensure you have a decent auto-inflate life jacket for each crew probably with spray hood and crotch straps.
5. Ensure that all of the safety equipment is in good order and that the boat is well found. If an equipment failure was forseeable because you knew it was broken or needed replacing it will be hard to argue against. That could include an engine kown to be dodgy, the faulty VHF, cracked chain plate etc. The circumstances where they lead to death or injury then you are responsible.
6. Log all accidents and take prompt action to obtain assistance.
7. Protect the crew from themselves ie drunk, ill or just unreasonable people need to be managed even if that means ending the trip. It might seem unfair on you but you are resonible for everyone regardless of how stupid/drunk they are. After all did they get drunk on your boat drinking your booze? If not you let them on drunk!
8. Dont take unecessary risks and try and approaching risk decisions from an objective point of view. Because you have a contessa 32 doesn't mean when heading out in a F8-9 the Judge will share your faith in the boat. Not many leisure sailers HAVE to cast off regardless of the weather.
In essence if you fail to meet the standard of a general body of recreational skippers, probably with reference to RYA standards you will be negligent. I can't comment on statuatory liability. The burden of evidence test is on the balance of probabilities ie 51% For criminal culpability the test is beyond reasonable doubt and this would apply to all arguments of recklessness.
Is it ambulance chasing claim culture? Well from a professional's perspective I only deal with catastrophic injuries. If I did something that was culpable or made a bad call that badly injured my son or a friend by putting in him a wheelchair or rendering brain injured then I would want to try and make amends. The easiest way to do that is to carry insurance, we all do it for the cars we drive so why not boats.
I am sure there are plenty of people who will look at the list and complain its oppressive or wrong, but I if was brought a claim to consider they the are the tortious issues I would be considering.
apologies for the long post.
SirSnoozalot
Well-Known Member
So, in essence, cover one's @rse - Register in Zimbabwe, with the boat owned by nominee directors in the Bahamas, domiciled in Somalia, and be totally anti-social and don't invite anyone to enjoy themselves on your boat.
