legal liability for crew?

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matelot

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Rum Pirates post on racing insurance got me thinking - I dont know the real legal liability that I as a boat owner / skipper might have for the crew of friends that come aboard. To be clear, this is a non commericial boat and just a group of pals sailing together - and less anyone wonders, I dont have a problem at the moment. In fact technically I dont even have a boat until I take it over next week..

Is there anyone out there who really knows - not the barrack room lawyers like myself who have an opinion but not real knowledge of the law. Would much prefer to hear from a barrister.

I guess the two situations are:

a/ the crew gets injured because of my error / poor maintenance of the boat, etc

b/ the crew does something daft all on his own and gets injured as a result.
 
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Would much prefer to hear from a barrister.

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But not presumably to pay for one!

[/ QUOTE ] Of course not - I'll pay for one if ever I have a problem. In the meantime I'd like to know what the up to date interpretationmof common law is in relation to yacht crews..
 
Sorry, it was only intended as a gently dig.
I've never sought legal advice on this and thankfully I've heard of very few cases of skippers being sued but I don't see any fundamental difference between taking people out on a boat, out in a car, or inviting them in to your home. If you are negligent and your negligence causes them loss or injury then you are liable for damages. I would hope that the friends I take sailing or invite in to my home or car would be most unlikely to sue me; I would also hope that my 3rd party insurance would cover me if they do; but first and foremost I would try and use common sense and forethought to minimise the chances of accidents. I don't see much point in delving in to the legal detail as "circumstances alter cases."
 
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Sorry, it was only intended as a gently dig.
I've never sought legal advice on this and thankfully I've heard of very few cases of skippers being sued but I don't see any fundamental difference between taking people out on a boat, out in a car, or inviting them in to your home. If you are negligent and your negligence causes them loss or injury then you are liable for damages. I would hope that the friends I take sailing or invite in to my home or car would be most unlikely to sue me; I would also hope that my 3rd party insurance would cover me if they do; but first and foremost I would try and use common sense and forethought to minimise the chances of accidents. I don't see much point in delving in to the legal detail as "circumstances alter cases."

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I would imagine that most, if not all, yachting insurance contains third party cover.

Your friends may not particularly want to sue you, but if one them gets cracked around the head by the boom causing an injury that requires long-term care, it's not unreasonable for them to make a claim against your insurance. I certainly wouldn't take it personally if something like that happened.
 
Not a lawyer but I do have a professional interest in issues of liability in outdoor and adventure education settings. As a yacht skipper one will have a very clear 'duty of care' to crew or guests. However if you follow all reasonable precautions, for example RYA recommendations on safety equipment and giving an appropriate safety briefing, and then you conduct the vessel in a reasonably prudent fashion you are unllikely to be found personally liable in the event of someone being injured or worse. Negligence requires that you could reasonably anticipate some risk and took no action to mitigate. That's not to say that your insurance might not be liable.

No doubt a lawyer will be along shortly to correct me.
 
Is that so?

We had a yacht carrying novice sailors for a payment. Skipper was advised not to sail by dep HM. 3 of the lads were drowned. No lifejackets, no harnesses.

Skipper up for manslaughter. Case thrown out. Went to re-trial. Case thrown out.

The newspapers reported that the widows would sue for damages (but helpfully I don't know the outcome, perhaps someone else does)
 
Years ago I ran a children's club, ages 4 to 14 years, with over 70 kids. Each week I took 4 children out for the day. I made sure that each had a lifejacket on at all times and also made sure I had a public liability policy in force to cover against any of the children being hurt. However, that was in the mid 80's. Now, with so many "ambulance chasers" around, when we invite my children's school friends away for a few days we first write to the parents asking for their permission for their child to come, We stress that we do this for free, we will feed their child, no costs to them, and do our best to care for their child as with our own children, but that we hold that it is THEIR responsibility to provide Travel Insurance for the duration of the trip for their child. Our disclaimer is that we will not be held liable apart from every duty of care they might reasonably expect from us as amateur owners.
 
Nothing will prevent someone who has suffered some loss whilst in your property from claiming damages, even going to court to enforce the claim. No win no fee practices increase the chances of claims being pressed to a court hearing.

You cannot insure against such action, only reduce the chances by taking care, AND being able to demonstrate you took such care.

What care and to what level? Contemplation of this could consume our entire lives...as you no doubt appreciate. That's why the concept of reasonable preparation is in effect our best line of action. And that's a personal matter depending on all the circumstances.

Don't suppose that puts your mind at rest, but is my best offering to a serious concern that we all, consciously or otherwise, face.

PWG
 
I've had no direct experience of this but did once take a barrister friend sailing for a weekend trip.
He expressed surprise that my initial safety briefing was too perfunctory and that I should get visitors to sign the log to the effect that they understood the briefing.
I just found it easier not to invite him again.
 
From my perspective as a lawyer, non-barrack room variety, and subject to the disclaimers that this is not my area of law and I have never chased an ambulance in my life:

Yes, as others have said, there is a duty of care. But there is a much more difficult question of liability in a particular situation - which may depend on factors such as the extent to which an injured party can be said to be responsible for his or her own actions.

Also, as others have said, the law is evolving.

I would suggest that you check what your insurance actually covers and also that we could all benefit from spending a little time thinking about the practices we adopt which might help to ensure the safety of those who sail with us.
 
Thanks foir the reply. I guess what was puzzling me is that going sailing for a day with mates is a joint activity in reality, whichever one owns the boat.I can understand how a professional skipper with a paid crew on., for example, a sail training boat would have a duty of care. But me with my pals on a day out?

The problem with all this is that its an issue you can happily ignore as theoretical. But if you ever are unfortunate enough to get involved with the law (as I am currently making a claim against someone's motor insurance) you rapidly realise that it has nothing to do with commonsense reason or justice, and is about as controllable as a runaway horse.
 
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going sailing for a day with mates is a joint activity in reality, whichever one owns the boat.I can understand how a professional skipper with a paid crew on., for example, a sail training boat would have a duty of care. But me with my pals on a day out?


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Health warning: What follows is from five or more years ago.

I went to a conference at the National Maritime Museum and one of the sessions was about legal responsibilities of skippers of pleasure craft (non-commercial, like us). The speaker was a maritime law expert and a sailor. He made several points as I recall:

There is exactly one skipper on the boat and the responsibilities of skipper fall on that person alone. Some of the responsibilities (I forget which) are explicitly not delegate-able and some may not be waived by disclaimer. It is not a joint post and if it felt the need the court might decide who the skipper (the responsible person) was after the event.
 
I read an accident report where the owner was the least experienced sailor on board. No decisions were made, they just seemed to muddle on until capsize and rescue by helicopter.

I understand no one claimed.
 
I assume no one was killed. I think the situation my conference speaker was talking about would be where the CPS wanted to pin gross negligence manslaughter on someone.
 
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Not a lawyer but I do have a professional interest in issues of liability in outdoor and adventure education settings. As a yacht skipper one will have a very clear 'duty of care' to crew or guests. However if you follow all reasonable precautions, for example RYA recommendations on safety equipment and giving an appropriate safety briefing, and then you conduct the vessel in a reasonably prudent fashion you are unllikely to be found personally liable in the event of someone being injured or worse.

<span style="color:blue"> more importantly, if you do this you are less likely to cause an injury in the first place</span>

Negligence requires that you could reasonably anticipate some risk and took no action to mitigate. That's not to say that your insurance might not be liable.

<span style="color:blue"> Third party insurance will pay out only if the insurance company is persuaded the insured has been negligent. Persuasion might involve litigation, which is where the lawyers come in </span>



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There is a bit of confusion on the thread between crimnal and civil law.

Criminal "gross negligence" is a willfull recklessness far beyond the normal civil standard of negligence, which is a failure to take reasonable steps to prevent a reasonably forseeable injury. Therefore it is not unheard of for someone to be found not guilty of willful and reckless behaviour, but still be liable to compensate the victims.

I always feel dutybound to carry thrid party insurance. The people most likely to be injured by any negligent act or ommission on my part would be people I care about dearly: friends or family who make up my crew. I would hate for them to feel that they should not seek compensation from me, if they were badly injured by some stupidity on my part. Compensation is not greed or profit: its purpose is to try by monetary means to put the injured person back in the position they would have been in had it not been for the negligent act. Cash is a crude tool for doing this, but it is often the only way. There are undoubtedly chancers out there, but they wont be sailing with me.

With luck and good judgement of course, nothing untoward will ever happen.
 
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