LED Flares - Expensive?

[Ohlin Karcher]

To Sandy: Last time EPIRB/PLB response time got discussed, a horse's mouth ( The ex CG who posts here now and then, if I remember rightly) said at least an hour, depending on database checks. ( No specific time has ever been published and nobody will commit to a number..)

We are told to register the devices to ensure a quicker response time.
But numerous mariners including me have done this and not even received acknowledgement months later, so we are obviously a bit concerned.

Putting the HEX numbers on the OFCOM database with the Ship's Radio licences, on the RYA safety scheme app, and any other database presumably helps as they are all checked before tasking, so I am told.
"Put your HEXes and boat names on any and every database, and cross your fingers" basically.

Apparently not having contacts for next of kin slows down the rescue but many are unable or unwilling to give any, and no authority will quantify the delay this lack entails. If any?

I'm sure HMCG staff are not happy about the situation either, I hope the problem gets firmly gripped asap.

A young CG is keen to crew on my yacht when I get to the S.Coast, so hopefully I can pump her brains unofficially, when she is out of uniform.

 

[rszemeti]

Yep, add it to the test list

The device I have been playing with is LED and somewhat more powerful .. it has a higher current draw and is intended for fixed installation on a yacht, rather than somehting to wave in your hand ...

 

[rszemeti]

To potential 999-dialers on the cliffs walking their dog, it's just another winking light. One at sea level, so as bad as it gets for visible range. If it launched itself to 300m with a loud whhooshing noise, and descended on a parachute, emitting unambiguous red light and smoke, that would be a step in the right direction.
EPIRBS get a relatively slow response ( I agree that more than one may reduce delay searching databases before scrambling the helo etc)
So, pyros are better at everything. If you don't like them, it is your call, of course, but it may compromise rescue.

+1

Spot on Sir!

 

[[163233]]

To potential 999-dialers on the cliffs walking their dog, it's just another winking light.

A flare might be also, and of course only burns for a minute or so.
I think these things have a value alongside a smaller array of, hopefully fewer, flares. The main advantage being that they run for hours.

I also agree that the poor understanding of what constitutes a distress signal really needs to be sorted out. Some people here could use a SOLAS card stuck up somewhere it seems.

RKJ's round the world trip would have ended had his flares been seen, and the Bailey's didn't get much luck out of theirs. A continuous light might have been seen.

 

[rszemeti]

A continuous light might have been seen.

Correct, I think it needs a two-pronged approach.

An effing great big pyro rocket for attractign attention .. even the general public know what that is.

A significantly bright continous (or at least continuously flashing) light to enable those despatched to the area to then find you.

Having only one of those elements is unlikely to be succesful.

 

[rogerthebodger]

S O S is one of the recognised signals

I did fit a flashing white light at the top of my mast to allow the S O S to be signaled together with others ways to attract attention.

There are lots of emergency flashing beacons available mainly for road use.

https://www.google.co.za/search?biw...hUKEwin0_qy0-nlAhUERxUIHX60DQEQ4dUDCAc&uact=5

To me its anything to attract attention.

 

[PilotWolf]

The bottom line is most people will recognize a flare or smoke based on TV shows, those old commercials and just a general sense of something that doesn't look right. A rocket flare doesn't give a good location but it will be seen by a lot of people who will make the call. I really don't think one of these LED things will have the same effect, I am a professional mariner and no one has ever show me what they look like. I have seen some videos online but that is all, put up a flare and I know exactly there's an issue. pretty sure that any mariner worldwide would too irrespective of any language barrier or training.

As said a strobe/ flashing light is probably not going of look out of the ordinary. I think if you carry the 2nd you need the first for intial alerting, the strobe for locating maybe...

Are SOLAS looking at these in anyway? If not then there really is no future for them other than as a gimmick or a leisure 'toy'.

I understand the concerns about pyrotechnics but given signal flags and balls with orange backgrounds are still official distress signals I don't see things changing anytime soon...

Do one of the RYA or RNLI courses and practice trying out a flare - they're really not that scary, especially if you have some heavy gloves in the pack. They do fail but so do modern electronics. I have been on many boats where even toches don't have working batteries - can you know the strobe or other electronic device does?

Again there are requirements for emergency batteries on commercial vessels to ensure communication capabilities but none for leisure vessels. And trust me I've seen some serious commercial issues so not trying to denigrate the pleasure side of boating, just again trying to get peole to look outside the box and as I said before please PM me if you want help or advise.

To be open I do make money out of this normally but given the help and support I have been given here I am trying to give back for no charge - maybe a rum if you're in town would be accepted

W.

 

[[70521]]

To Sandy: Last time EPIRB/PLB response time got discussed, a horse's mouth ( The ex CG who posts here now and then, if I remember rightly) said at least an hour, depending on database checks. ( No specific time has ever been published and nobody will commit to a number..)

We are told to register the devices to ensure a quicker response time.
But numerous mariners including me have done this and not even received acknowledgement months later, so we are obviously a bit concerned.

Putting the HEX numbers on the OFCOM database with the Ship's Radio licences, on the RYA safety scheme app, and any other database presumably helps as they are all checked before tasking, so I am told.
"Put your HEXes and boat names on any and every database, and cross your fingers" basically.

Apparently not having contacts for next of kin slows down the rescue but many are unable or unwilling to give any, and no authority will quantify the delay this lack entails. If any?

I'm sure HMCG staff are not happy about the situation either, I hope the problem gets firmly gripped asap.

A young CG is keen to crew on my yacht when I get to the S.Coast, so hopefully I can pump her brains unofficially, when she is out of uniform.

Thanks Ohlin lots of useful information there.

Perhaps we need the CG to be a bit more public about things. I also have a few contacts and will ask unofficially and officially.

I spend five years with a Mountain Rescue Tream back in the day when the milatary provided SAR helecopter cover. We had a great understanding of signalling to them, a flare was an ideal way of pinpointing us on a mountain.

We all need a mix of summoning help and personally I consider pyrotechics are part of that mix.

 

[[163233]]

The bottom line is most people will recognize a flare or smoke based on TV shows, those old commercials and just a general sense of something that doesn't look right. A rocket flare doesn't give a good location but it will be seen by a lot of people who will make the call.

I think a lot of the general public would recognise SOS flashing. Whether it'd be enough to get them to call is a different matter.
Rocket flares might be a lost cause on the hoi polloi, as they see so many rockets these days.

Actually didn't the Titanic's rocket flares get ignored by professional seamen?

 

[rszemeti]

I think a lot of the general public would recognise SOS flashing. Whether it'd be enough to get them to call is a different matter.
Rocket flares might be a lost cause on the hoi polloi, as they see so many rockets these days.

Actually didn't the Titanic's rocket flares get ignored by professional seamen?

I thought the Titanics radio call was ignored, as it was sent a few minutes after the radio officer on another passing liner had just gone off watch.

 

[goeasy123]

My grandad was chief stone mason on the Titanic. (true)

I remember him telling be "Those bloody flares are dangerous. Someone's bound to set the ship on fire and sink it".

 

[[163233]]

I thought the Titanics radio call was ignored, as it was sent a few minutes after the radio officer on another passing liner had just gone off watch.

From the British inquiry into the disaster:-

Gill, the donkeyman, states that he saw two rockets fired from the ship which he had been observing, (Gill, 18156-61) and about 1.10 a.m., Mr. Stone reported to the Captain by voice pipe, they he had seen five white rockets from the direction of the steamer. (Stone, 7870) He states that the Master answered, "Are they Company's signals?" and that he replied, "I do not know, but they appear to me to be white rockets." The Master told him to "go on Morsing," and, when he received any information, to send the apprentice down to him with it. (7879) Gibson states that Mr. Stone informed him that he had reported to the Master, and that the Master had said the steamer was to be called up by Morse light. (Gibson, 7479) This witness thinks the time was 12.55; he at once proceeded again to call the steamer up by Morse. He got no reply, but the vessel fired three more white rockets; these rockets were also seen by Mr. Stone.

Whilst checking this, because my initial comment was admittedly based on films, apparently there's some disagreement over the number of rockets fired. The Californian crew account for about 8 but the ship carried just short of 50, and it is hard to believe they didn't fire them all.

If the Californian saw no rockets at all (as the formal log and the senior officers claimed at the inquiry) then the rockets were even less effectual as the Titanic was definitely in sight when it was in distress.

I would guess that an LED flare wouldn't have made much difference though at least there would have been a clear SOS...

 

[PilotWolf]

I think a lot of the general public would recognise SOS flashing. Whether it'd be enough to get them to call is a different matter.
Rocket flares might be a lost cause on the hoi polloi, as they see so many rockets these days.

Actually didn't the Titanic's rocket flares get ignored by professional seamen?

I don't remember the exact details about the Titanic but I think they thought they were fireworks as weren't actually parachute flares but star, busts from a Vearry (so?) pistol? Today's flares aren't really comparable.

I'm not convinced they would recognize SOS based on the fact many mobile phones had SMS for a message alert and most people thought this was SOS. Also if they think it's just another bouy are they even going to bother trying to decode it?

Wasn't the radio officer on the other ship busy sending telegrams as they'd just come into radio range of the US? Also pretty sure the SOS call for help had only recently come into being. It's difficult to know as there have been so many tv shows and films about it and I doubt many are factually accurate.

W.

 

[[163233]]

Here's RKJ himself:-

(...) the nearest land was at least 10 days away. A passing ship ignored my flares and even a distress rocket as it sailed past a quarter of a mile away.

 

[[163233]]

I'm not convinced they would recognize SOS based on the fact many mobile phones had SMS for a message alert and most people thought this was SOS.

I think that shows that they do recognise an SOS, but that their morse (understandably) doesn't extend beyond that.

 

[PilotWolf]

I think that shows that they do recognise an SOS, but that their morse (understandably) doesn't extend beyond that.

More likely they had it pointed out to them but someone else who doesn't read morse or heard it on TV and didn't notice the missing dash ...

No one method of asking for help is guaranteed to work which is why many have said of the need for different types of ways to get help and not rely on just one, especially one that is unproven and likely not to be recognized by most.

PW

 

[[70521]]

I think a lot of the general public would recognise SOS flashing.

I would not be so sure. I've seen a lot of the general public do odd things. Like go hillwaking when there was a sign at the carpark saying it was not a good idea. People six hours walk from the nearest road using an AA roadmap to navigate by.

 

[[163233]]

I would not be so sure. I've seen a lot of the general public do odd things. Like go hillwaking when there was a sign at the carpark saying it was not a good idea. People six hours walk from the nearest road using an AA roadmap to navigate by.

I doubt that lot would respond to anything.

 

[Stemar]

It's the same old argument again - the "dinosaurs" saying that the old way is best, while the "techies" prefer the new way. I don't think either are entirely right or entirely wrong.

I think it comes down to what kind of sailing you're doing. If I'm going off doing something rufty tufty where I'm likely to find unexpected rocks or bad weather, yep, I'll have a RORC flare set, but I'd also carry an LED beacon because it lasts a couple of hours, making it far easier for whoever's coming to rescue me to home in. IIRC, mine can also be set to flash SOS, which most adults will recognise.

I'm unlikely to do that kind of sailing now; my style is more pottering around the Solent, by day and in good weather. For that, If I need help, I can set things moving by fixed DSC VHF, handheld VHF or one of a couple of mobile phones. Once someone's looking for me, I reckon that the LED beacon will do way better than the couple of red handhelds in an inshore flare pack, though I acknowledge that a smoke flare would be useful if the helicopter needs a wind direction.

 

[Elessar]

The dog walker argument is silly. If a dog walker can see you, and happens to know what to do, you would have been able to call for help by VHF and probably mobile phone.

Flares are for last mile guidance and as a boat identifier in busy waters.

I will continue to buy floating smokes as they would be a perfect identifier in a busy, daytime solent. And I’m going to buy some LED “flares”

Also, I take my flares out fairly regularly to show people how to use them. I still have to read the instructions because they are not intuitive and different makes are different.

If you need flares for real you are having a seriously bad day. Will you have a torch to hand to read how to do it? Do you need glasses to read the instructions? Can your crew do it if you are incapacitated? Just too difficult to use in a panic.

BTW I have witnessed a fatality with a rocket flare. Criminal mis use of it but that doesn’t mean the guy is any less dead.