lazyjacks and singlehand sailing

Kukri said:
However I am now the keeper of a boat that displaces 24 tons and whilst she has very nice manners I need to consider that if I make a mistake I may do real damage, so I am now thinking of lazy jacks, just to retain visibility ahead.
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Maintaining view ahead is a good point.
We used to have a spider with lashings that needed to be rigged before dowsing - we got lazy and just left them up and fluttering about, however the helm would be flying blind for a few minutes while I gathered up the sail and got it out of the way. This usually occurred at critical moments just when we are about to enter port or a complex river passage.
With the jacks we drop the sail into the cradle and we're done. In high winds we might add a single lashing, but I'm no longer trying to shovel up miles of slippery cloth and battens onto the boom, then holding on to it with one arm like a drunken lover while the boat rolls in the ground and you're clumsily groping for that elusive sail tie with the other.

Having to pay a bit more attention while raising sail is at best a minor inconvenience. The real screw-ups are more likely to happen at the end of a long passage, when you are tired or even exhausted and can't wait to get in for a good meal, glass of wine and a good night's sleep. That's when being able to just drop the sail and watch it self-stow really counts.
 
Your avatar suggests you are local to me. Do come and see mine in action. I variously flap the main to clear the lazy jacks or release the more leeward one and bring it forwards. Both techniques work.

To drop I release the halyard, secure it at the 'lowered' position then pass the head through the wind.
 
awol said:
On the other hand - drop mooring; back to cockpit and unroll genoa, sheeting to point head in right direction before fully unrolling and sheeting in; release kicker and mainsheet; clear moorings and when in open water stroll forward removing sail ties on the way; hoist main; back to cockpit, sheet in/kicker on; take tiller. No need for autohelm, motor, extra crew. Parking is under main only - stop at buoy, pick up strop, back to mast and drop sail flaking the luff as it goes. Only if tide is stronger than wind - nearly all this year in the sunny north - does this need modification but I was probably motoring anyway.
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Even if your only option is down wind to the busy mooring bouys.... Impressive ??
 
If you have trouble hoisting with lazyjacks, retract them. They should be designed to retract behind the mast in seconds. Redeploy before lowering or reefing. I would do this if hoisting in rough conditions where the sail would whip about a bit. Otherwise, good technique was enough. Also shaking out a deep reef when it's still rough, pulling them forward takes only seconds.
 
thinwater said:
If you have trouble hoisting with lazyjacks, retract them. They should be designed to retract behind the mast in seconds. Redeploy before lowering or reefing. I would do this if hoisting in rough conditions where the sail would whip about a bit. Otherwise, good technique was enough. Also shaking out a deep reef when it's still rough, pulling them forward takes only seconds.
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It's easy to say that they should retract in seconds, but is that seconds spent at the mast? Or do you have them led back with the halyards?
Am I supposed to retract the lazyjacks ahead of wanting to hoist the main, and have the sail fall over the deck while I get back to the cockpit to hoist?

If they turn into something else you have to mess with, are they worth having?

Would it not be far better to sort out the string and the way we operate so the lazyjacks can just sit there doing their job?
There are several boats here which appear to have lazyjacks set up not to be fiddled with much.

Is there some subtle but important difference between lazyjacks which work well and those which are hassle?

Maybe it's the one thing my esteemed 'Previous Owners' got right?
 
I am still struggling to understand what the problem is, having never once adjusted the lazyjacks for hoisting or dropping.
And as the boom is 3-4 inches higher when halyard is fully hoisted, that loosens the lazy jacks sufficiently to avoid chafe.
Perhaps it is a matter of practice? (PS. May be more tricky solo if halyards at mast, as can’t easily adjust autopilot / helm)
 
awol said:
I don't have lazy jacks (a.k.a. TWOTD) but I do have the main halyard at the mast ... and a remote control for the autohelm. Allowed lazing on the foredeck while motoring into the glassy seas of last summer - very cathartic.
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Did wonder about a remote for the autopilot.

i remember watching a Swedish boat going through some rocky lakes plus narrow canal sections on the Gota Kanal - with him and her on folding deckchairs on the foredeck, and nobody in the cockpit :oops:
 
Then there was the guy with a large mobo who went up the Danardry flight from the land, apparently easier to see the gap to the lock wall, controlling engines, steering and thrusters with a panel slung round his neck. The crew handled the warps.
 
Wing Mark said:
It's easy to say that they should retract in seconds, but is that seconds spent at the mast? Or do you have them led back with the halyards?
Am I supposed to retract the lazyjacks ahead of wanting to hoist the main, and have the sail fall over the deck while I get back to the cockpit to hoist?

If they turn into something else you have to mess with, are they worth having?

Would it not be far better to sort out the string and the way we operate so the lazyjacks can just sit there doing their job?
There are several boats here which appear to have lazyjacks set up not to be fiddled with much.

Is there some subtle but important difference between lazyjacks which work well and those which are hassle?

Maybe it's the one thing my esteemed 'Previous Owners' got right?
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Seconds spent at the mast. It my opinion, that every sailor should be comfortable going to the mast in all weather (jacklines and harness as required) as a basic seamanship requirement. However, if that were an enethema to me, I would rig the same (a few small bocks, some small line, and two cam cleats) for handling in the cockpit. Simple.

I have never had the sail fall off the boom in the few moments between retracting the lazyjacks and hoisting. A theoretical but nonexistent problem in my experience.

In fact, it is only one hoist in 40 that I pull them forward, perhaps not that. Only if the weather is quite snotty and I want no risk of snagging. I never pulled them forward in ordinary sailing weather. I was only giving an example of something that could be done. (Allowing a facility to do it manually at the mast requires only a tension adjustment (two cleats) on the boom, which you should have anyway, and two hooks near the mast, which in my case where the same cleats--so really just a matter of good design, not a serious modification.)

I'm not a big fan of rigging them from the spreads, or at least not too far out. Pulling the spreaders down, out of their right position, is no small concern, and lazy jacks can aply a good bit of downward force if over tensioned and a slack sail is blown hard against them.

One common mistake is to run the LJs too far aft and run them too far up the mast, in the hopes or providing perfect control. They are best kept to the front part of the sail. Less to snag. If the clew area is somewhat unsuported, that is ok; the clew will hold things in place.

Another benifit not mentioned. With full battended sails and lazy jacks, there is no need to apply sail ties when lowered (sail cover of course) and no need to tie up the bunt when reefed. I've sailed in a full gale with 3 reefs and never applied a sail tie. In fact, the sail ties were kept below and never used for that.

Are they worth having? Everyone that has them says they are. It depends on the size of the sail and layout of the boat, I suppose. In fact, there are subtle things in every bit of rigging that make the difference between smooth, dialed-in operation and a PIA. Dialed-in systems are the mark of a good sailor.
 
My own laxy jacks were hung from blocks fixed to the mast below the second spreaders and gave only a small gap to raise the sail without the batten ends catching. My solution was a ring round the top cord of the lazyjacks on each side tied out to the cap shrouds so as to pull the lazyjacks apart by a foot or so.

I did work out, but never tried a neat system to allow lazyjacks to be lowered or raised easily. The idea was to use a single piece of rope for the topmost part of the lazyjack sytem, passing from the uppermost block on one side via the mast block, down in front of the mast to a downhaul point then up again to the other side. The downhaul would then tension both sides equally, routed via a mast foot block back to the cockpit. The end of the rope would be tied to a suitable point (I had a convenient U bolt to attach myself to in heavy weater, which would have served) To tension the lazyjacks the downhaul rope would be pulled so that a hook tied to it at the correct point could be clipped on to the strongpoint. I never did that, simply because the separation that I made allowed me to raise the sail without catching the batten ends very often.
 
I should just like to add a few observations:
Thinwater made some valid points: the jacks do not have to go to the end of the boom and do not have to go any higher than the first spreader; this alone cuts down on the risk of entanglement considerably.

Spread them out at the top, i.e. mine go through a block at mid spreader. My boom(s) still has a substantial topping lift and the loads on my jacks are minimal. If worried about your spreader, have a designed point of failure built into the jacks.

If you can have a halyard brought back to the cockpit, you can lead your LJ controls back as well, including some method of tieing them back/off. I have to go up to the mast(s) anyway to raise sail and to be honest, I've never given it much thought. What I can say however, is that I no longer have to climb onto the wheelhouse roof to gather and tie down acres of sail when dousing.

Lastly, lazy jacks are cheap and easy to install, I had mine up on both main and mizzen in a lazy afternoon, including spicing eyes for all the connectors instead of using rings or blocks. Three strand 4mm is plenty cheap and strong and if you find you don't like it, you can have it all down in a minute, chaulk it up to experience and have the satisfaction of telling everyone on this forum and who recommended them that they were out to lunch.
 
I can't even begin to see how you could have a problem with battens and lazyjacks if you;

a) have the lazyjacks rigged so the sail always projects a little beyond them (it'll still come up and down cleanly between them)
and
b) even if not so rigged you ensure head to wind when raising the sail.

Where is the problem?
 
Slowboat35 said:
I can't even begin to see how you could have a problem with battens and lazyjacks if you;

a) have the lazyjacks rigged so the sail always projects a little beyond them (it'll still come up and down cleanly between them)
and
b) even if not so rigged you ensure head to wind when raising the sail.

Where is the problem?
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Some obvious cases:
  • The sail is under and inside the jacks when you first begin hoisting. Obviously.
  • Hoisting dead into the wind in rough, gusty conditions, singlehanding, is a myth even with an autopilot. All it takes is quick wind shift and the sail is 20-30 degrees off the centerline.
But 98% of the time, I agree 100%. The sail should extend safely beyond the LJs at the deepest reef; that should be one of the installation checks.
 
thinwater said:
  • Hoisting dead into the wind in rough, gusty conditions, singlehanding, is a myth even with an autopilot. All it takes is quick wind shift and the sail is 20-30 degrees off the centerline.
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In which case leaving the mainsheet slack & there is no problem whatsoever as the sail will just weathercock to the wind. If the mainsail shakes a bit it will shake free of any lazy jacks as it goes up,just time the pull on the halyard as it goes up between the lines.
The boat rolling a bit helps as well because it swings the leech free if it did touch a lazy jack.
None of this is an issue, especially if hoisting from the cockpit ,one can easily correct the autopilot which will probably be within reach.
 
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Rather oddly, I find it easier to avoid a snag in moderately windy conditions than in a flat calm. When it is windy, the leach flutters as it goes up and is effectively self-freeing. In calm weather I have to be more careful because the only cure for a slight snag is to lower the sail a bit. I supposed that I could create a wind by motoring fast but that would soon put me aground in local waters. :confused:
 
I think it also depends sometimes on the nature of the area you sail in.

Out of my home berth, the water is narrow and often crowded with other boats and it's easy to run out of water as above and having another to give it another go.
 
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thinwater said:
Some obvious cases:
  • The sail is under and inside the jacks when you first begin hoisting. Obviously.
  • Hoisting dead into the wind in rough, gusty conditions, singlehanding, is a myth even with an autopilot. All it takes is quick wind shift and the sail is 20-30 degrees off the centerline.
But 98% of the time, I agree 100%. The sail should extend safely beyond the LJs at the deepest reef; that should be one of the installation checks.
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Poppycock been doing it for years
 
Mine are rigged to the upper spreaders, but only about 6 inches from the root and I can sit or stand on the spreaders without worry. The LJs will break before the spreader moves.

I nearly always pull them forward to hoist, and whenever the cover goes on, so the start of the weekend they wont be rigged. Occasionally the sail will fall off the boom before I have it up, but the hoist is only 10 to 20 seconds, so that isn't an issue. As for dunedin, my boom lifts a few inches on the hoist, so they slacken off and don't need adjustment. I also have them relative loose, as I like to flake the sail, and having them too tight makes this impossible. They don't affect sail shape when sailing.

After I bought he boat I tried to sail without them, but singlehandedly stowing 600sqf just didn't work.
 
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