Latest 'stable door bolting' from MAIB

[mainsail1]

Why no shallow depth alarm permanently set at 10 meters?
Time and time again these so called qualified skippers really don't have what it takes. The RYA examination system is just not fit for purpose when that includes 'commercial'.

 

[capnsensible]

Why no shallow depth alarm permanently set at 10 meters?
Time and time again these so called qualified skippers really don't have what it takes. The RYA examination system is just not fit for purpose when that includes 'commercial'.

Well a shallow alarm going off isn't going to tell you what to do is it?

The rest of your post seems rather ill informed and subjective. All the very successful Skippers never get a mention because they are doing their jobs properly.

Bit like saying pilot training is rubbish after the thankfully rare plane crash......

 

[capnsensible]

I think this is not unusual for fully crewed racing racing boats.
The helmsman's job is to steer, not to navigate, do pilotage, tactics, weather or strategy.
I'm not sure the helm can actually race a boat like that fully if your concentration is anywhere but the sails and the wheel.
A singlehanded racer is an enetirely different game, engage autopilot, look at the big picture.

.

Spot on. Those that have never been part of a large crew might not get that though.

 

[mainsail1]

Well a shallow alarm going off isn't going to tell you what to do is it?

The rest of your post seems rather ill informed and subjective. All the very successful Skippers never get a mention because they are doing their jobs properly.

Bit like saying pilot training is rubbish after the thankfully rare plane crash......

As you know, a shallow depth arm would jog any skipper into action.
I don't think I am ill informed having been involved in the Yachtmaster scheme for about 15 years, which may not be as much as you, but it did give me a good insight. I have always thought it was pretty casual in many ways.
The thing is, these skippers have had quite a lot of mishaps per hundred sea miles.... and you just have to look at Clipper or even just the latest report to see how many of the boats could easily have ended up on the beach but for luck, not skill.

 

[Tintin]

So who here has never run aground then, even with depth and plotters?

 

[capnsensible]

As you know, a shallow depth arm would jog any skipper into action.
I don't think I am ill informed having been involved in the Yachtmaster scheme for about 15 years, which may not be as much as you, but it did give me a good insight. I have always thought it was pretty casual in many ways.
The thing is, these skippers have had quite a lot of mishaps per hundred sea miles.... and you just have to look at Clipper or even just the latest report to see how many of the boats could easily have ended up on the beach but for luck, not skill.

That's it though, there are just not many incidents in a high risk venture. If you are Solent area, why not try seeing if you can get a looky round with their training guys? I did that in Cowes last year. They are exceedingly good......but nothing is sailor proof.

 

[Blue Sunray]

Well a shallow alarm going off isn't going to tell you what to do is it?

The rest of your post seems rather ill informed and subjective. All the very successful Skippers never get a mention because they are doing their jobs properly.

Bit like saying pilot training is rubbish after the thankfully rare plane crash......

:encouragement: Whilst I'm no fan of the RYA training and qualification system, regarding it as basically a ponzi scheme, it is infantile to claim that this incident is means that it is unfit for purpose. Let's blame the driving test for the latest crash on the M6, shall we?

 

[capnsensible]

There is a chance for all the negatistas to do something about it.

Get a job as. Training Skipper. If you are good enough, you can show them how they should be doing it.

https://www.clipperroundtheworld.com/jobs/view/training-skipper

:encouragement:

 

[JumbleDuck]

I think this is not unusual for fully crewed racing racing boats.
The helmsman's job is to steer, not to navigate, do pilotage, tactics, weather or strategy.

Which is fine, but it seems that at least some of the time they had nobody doing the navigation or pilotage, and if that was their strategy some sort of relevant information at the helm would seem like a bare substitute.

The problem is having a 'crew' entirely selected for their ability to write 5 figure cheques.

That too, of course.

Well a shallow alarm going off isn't going to tell you what to do is it?

No, but it's a pretty good indication that something needs to be done. My CO alarm just goes BEEEEEEEEEEEE, very loudly, but if it ever does it for real I won't just look at it and say "Well, that's fine, but what am I supposed to do?"

 

[Blue Sunray]

There is a chance for all the negatistas to do something about it.

Get a job as. Training Skipper. If you are good enough, you can show them how they should be doing it.

https://www.clipperroundtheworld.com/jobs/view/training-skipper

:encouragement:

That's bit like saying if you don't think that the RN is run well take a shot at AIB (yes, (if you are young and fit enough) you might have some impact eventually but...). I suspect that any major issues with this race are not down the quality of the individual skippers.

 

[capnsensible]

That's bit like saying if you don't think that the RN is run well take a shot at AIB (yes, (if you are young and fit enough) you might have some impact eventually but...). I suspect that any major issues with this race are not down the quality of the individual skippers.

A teensy tiny bit. But that's all.

Some posters on here want to give advice as to how it should be done. There is the chance. Go for it.

Then once the winner has got depth alarms at a racing yacht helm, they can nip off to the MCA and get radar screens put in engine rooms of tankers.

 

[lw395]

Which is fine, but it seems that at least some of the time they had nobody doing the navigation or pilotage, and if that was their strategy some sort of relevant information at the helm would seem like a bare substitute.
...

Steering a high power yacht without an autopilot is a full time job. It would be foolish to rely on the helm being able to operate a plotter at the same time.
For racing the helm needs two bits of info fromthe electronics, those are speed and compass. Our boat, with a full crew racing, we have those on big displays at the mast where everyone can see them. Cruising shorthanded, we tend to switch one to depth.

I suspect the problem is partly not having an adequate passage plan to keep clear of the hazards, plus a general failure to track where the boat is. What surprises me most is that none of the 'crew' were sufficiently engaged with what was happening to be keeping an eye on progress on the plotter.
If it was me and SWMBO sailing down the coast, we'd have a series of waypoints to not go inside, and we'd have discussed what we needed to do to get where we were going.
That might involve not crossing a depth contour, or it might involve a waypoint and a limit bearing, e.g. 'that buoy, we don't want it bearing less than 250T'.
So generally what's needed is a plan and an adequately briefed person to do the basics at the chart table every half hour or so. More often if you're at close quarters, maybe less often when you're mid atlantic.

A depth alarm might be a useful tool but relying on it is just wrong. It might not be helpful, depending how the contours go. On ocean crossings they often go off due to fish or whales IME. An XTE alarm might be more useful.

Some people have criticised the RYA/YM as part of this thread, it seems to me that a big part of YM as I recall it was that the Skipper or Watch Leader does not spend too much of their time steering. Has that gone out the window now, do they just drive the little boat icon around the playstation?

 

[mainsail1]

So, here is a fully qualified, commercially endorsed Yachtmaster Ocean Skipper and he sails into a piece of land that everyone knew was there ...and to make matters worse, a number of his fellow Skippers on other boats in the same race very nearly do the same......and people on this forum think there is nothing wrong with the RYA examination system for commercial skippers? Yea right.

 

[capnsensible]

So, here is a fully qualified, commercially endorsed Yachtmaster Ocean Skipper and he sails into a piece of land that everyone knew was there ...and to make matters worse, a number of his fellow Skippers on other boats in the same race very nearly do the same......and people on this forum think there is nothing wrong with the RYA examination system for commercial skippers? Yea right.

Go for the Training Skipper job. :encouragement:

 

[capnsensible]

Meanwhile, in other news, thousands of voyages are made by Qualified Skippers with no problems whatsoever.

 

[Blue Sunray]

So, here is a fully qualified, commercially endorsed Yachtmaster Ocean Skipper and he sails into a piece of land that everyone knew was there ...and to make matters worse, a number of his fellow Skippers on other boats in the same race very nearly do the same......and people on this forum think there is nothing wrong with the RYA examination system for commercial skippers? Yea right.

You are obviously a little bit hard of reading and thinking so I'll type this slowly for you:

it is infantile to claim that this incident is means that it is unfit for purpose. Let's blame the driving test for the latest crash on the M6, shall we?

Or is the Master Mariner's qualification system unfit because of this?

http://gcaptain.com/master-fined-over-cargo-ships-grounding-ireland/

 

[mainsail1]

You are obviously a little bit hard of reading and thinking so I'll type this slowly for you:

it is infantile to claim that this incident is means that it is unfit for purpose. Let's blame the driving test for the latest crash on the M6, shall we?

Or is the Master Mariner's qualification system unfit because of this?

http://gcaptain.com/master-fined-over-cargo-ships-grounding-ireland/

Your view. I don't do "infantile insults" sunshine so I will ignore you.
I have seen the Yachtmaster scheme up close and personal, I have trained people who wanted to do the exam and seen them pass when I thought they were a liability. I think one of the problems is that leisure sailors are mixed in with those that aspire to be commercial skippers and both have to reach a low standard to pass when the truth is the standard needs to be far higher for those who are going to sea commercially.

 

[lw395]

So, here is a fully qualified, commercially endorsed Yachtmaster Ocean Skipper and he sails into a piece of land that everyone knew was there ...and to make matters worse, a number of his fellow Skippers on other boats in the same race very nearly do the same......and people on this forum think there is nothing wrong with the RYA examination system for commercial skippers? Yea right.

I mostly agree with the other replies to this post.
It's not the fault of the YM scheme that these boats are so badly run.

But just maybe, you have a point.
People seem to be getting qualified as YM Commercial without grasping the fundamental point that be Master of a vessel is a serious business.
As Master you have absolute responsibility for the vessel, passngers, crew and cargo.
While you are at sea you are only subordinate to God, and that is only because he's got seniority.
The comparisons with crashes on the M6, well if you crash, you can do time for reckless driving or whatever.

It's a skipper's absolute responsibility to sail the boat within the ability of the crew. If your crew management skills don't run to successfully delegating the task of 'not hitting Africa', you probably should not have passed Dazed Kipper.

 

[penberth3]

...I am not sure just how HSE mandate works with Transportation in the UK MAIB & AAIB may take priority and jurisdiction. I would expect they do for higher level incidents.

Two different things there. MAIB, AAIB, RAIB investigate, that's all. HSE (or MCA/CAA/ORR for sea, air or rail) enforce legislation and prosecute breaches.

 

[prv]

Which is fine, but it seems that at least some of the time they had nobody doing the navigation or pilotage, and if that was their strategy some sort of relevant information at the helm would seem like a bare substitute.

Having nobody navigating wasn’t deliberate strategy, though. It seems to have just sort of evolved that way through whatever failings of management, training, etc.

The kit isn’t going to be installed to work in a mode (nobody navigating) that the company never intended to happen.

What almost surprised me more was that the sole intended means of communication between the navigator and the helm was the afterthought intercom feature on the VHF at one of the two wheels. I’ve used that, it’s fiddly to select the right mode and to alert the person at the other end, definitely a poor means of communication. The boat was designed with a dedicated hatch for direct conversation between nav and helm; when they decided to outlaw its use they really should have fitted an effective replacement. Instead it looks like they just pressed existing kit (the VHF and its remote mic) into service however unsuitable.

Pete