Latest Clipper Ventures MAIB report

[bikedaft]

it does seem unbelievable that we can still buy the tethers with clips that can fail under side load.

i changed our clips for stainless locking crabs

the Kong link - thanks - https://www.svb.de/de/kong-lifeline-elastisch-mit-zwei-karabinern.html - looks good - tho i'm not sure i trust the snap shackle at the crew end? mebbe that's just me emembering a few failures without a person attached.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Jeez it gets worse. Some of you seem to be thinking that Clipper deliberately let people use duff equipment? Bonkers.

Did you read the bit about the complaints voiced by the safety committee, and in particular the complaints about poor maintenance and faulty equipment?

Clearly you think a lot of the CV operation. That's fine, but I'm afraid that the assurances of someone who met one of their staff in a bar once and was shown round a boat carry rather less weight than a string of complaints, accidents, fatalities and MAIB reports. It seems that neither CV's customers nor professional investigators share your confidence, and it might be worth spending a few minutes reflecting on why that might be.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Rubbish. It seems to be clear that a lot of people want to take a shot at an organisation that pushes the boundaries of normal life. If they were truly concerned they would do as I suggested ages ago and go talk to those involved, badger the management and make a positive contribution.

I pay the MAIB to do that for me.

 

[thinwater]

I would like to know, then, why they didn't fail continuously during the races on all the boats and dozens of other crew didn't fall in.

The answer is in the report.

The carabiner must be subjected to a twisting or levering force, which does not often happen. However, testing shows that with this levering force it will fail every time. In fact, this type of failure is well known in climbing and in industry, which is why those standards have included tests for this failure mode for over 30 years. In fact, sailors fall thousands of times less frequently than industrial workers or climbers, so they learned about it first.

Additionally, the original Gibb design was NOT prone to this failure. It was ONLY when Spinlock converted the design from forged stainless to thin stamped metal, in the name of reduced weight but I'm guessing also economy, that the design became weak in the transverse direction. The original design was very good and considered transverse loading. It was the change to stamped metal that made it unstable. So really, Gibb hooks are not being condemned, only the stamped metal versions of them.

 

[thinwater]

....Old.

Exactly. Industry and UIAA standards changed 30 years ago to include this. Sailing standards missed the boat. Sailing standards were decades late on tether impact standards and are still behind, as well as lacking propper harness standards (chest harnesses are banned in every other application). The reason is that MOB falls are not very common, and the worst case is very rare. Further complicating development is tradition and that often the failed gear is lost (this is unique to sailing). But we can get there.

An American might say you are stuck in a river in Egypt (denial).

 

[Blue Sunray]

Exactly. Industry and UIAA standards changed 30 years ago to include this. Sailing standards missed the boat. Sailing standards were decades late on tether impact standards and are still behind, as well as lacking propper harness standards (chest harnesses are banned in every other application). The reason is that MOB falls are not very common, and the worst case is very rare. Further complicating development is tradition and that often the failed gear is lost (this is unique to sailing). But we can get there.

An American might say you are stuck in a river in Egypt (denial).

+1

 

[thinwater]

it does seem unbelievable that we can still buy the tethers with clips that can fail under side load.

i changed our clips for stainless locking crabs

the Kong link - thanks - https://www.svb.de/de/kong-lifeline-elastisch-mit-zwei-karabinern.html - looks good - tho i'm not sure i trust the snap shackle at the crew end? mebbe that's just me emembering a few failures without a person attached.

The preference for a releasable snap shackle on the crew end is a US Sailing requirement, driven by a few drownings resulting from capsize or being towed in the bow wave. The European leaning is for locking snaps on the crew end. The products offered vary by the country they are sold in. I'm not taking sides.

 

[lw395]

Exactly. Industry and UIAA standards changed 30 years ago to include this. Sailing standards missed the boat. Sailing standards were decades late on tether impact standards and are still behind, as well as lacking propper harness standards (chest harnesses are banned in every other application). The reason is that MOB falls are not very common, and the worst case is very rare. Further complicating development is tradition and that often the failed gear is lost (this is unique to sailing). But we can get there.

An American might say you are stuck in a river in Egypt (denial).

But the 1% chance your tether might not work really becomes a killer when lots of people fall on their tethers lots of times.
How many ocean crossings have you done, and how many times have you fallen on your tether?

A tether is like a crash helmet for a motorcyclist. It improves your chances of surviving a serious one-off f@@k up.
It is not a magic get out of jail free card.

Once you start relying on the tether absolutely, accepting that you will be routinely hanging off it, you have changed the game from emergency back stop to regular reliance.
I will buy a helmet that makes me survive 99% of crashes.
I won't buy a bike when I'm only going to survive 99% of commutes.
The problem is perhaps when somebody start selling package tours where I pretend I'm John McGuinness when I'm having a mid-life crisis.

 

[thinwater]

But the 1% chance your tether might not work really becomes a killer when lots of people fall on their tethers lots of times.
How many ocean crossings have you done, and how many times have you fallen on your tether?

A tether is like a crash helmet for a motorcyclist. It improves your chances of surviving a serious one-off f@@k up.
It is not a magic get out of jail free card.

Once you start relying on the tether absolutely, accepting that you will be routinely hanging off it, you have changed the game from emergency back stop to regular reliance.
I will buy a helmet that makes me survive 99% of crashes.
I won't buy a bike when I'm only going to survive 99% of commutes.
The problem is perhaps when somebody start selling package tours where I pretend I'm John McGuinness when I'm having a mid-life crisis.

I'm sorry, but we're going to have to disagree. I will not accept a piece of kit that fails at 500 pounds (test results), when UIAA type K carabiners (Kong Tango and others) can be relied upon, cost less money, and are easier to use. It is not too much to ask that a cartabiner will hold a minor fall even if it jams up against something.

Your analogy is false in this case. It assumes that there are not better, cheaper, more user-friendly alternatives that don't fail. If you don't want to use a tether (or helmet) I'm perfectly fine with that. I climb serious rock with out a rope on occasion, because I want to and because I spent many years developing a deep skill set and a close relationship with rock. But when I use gear, it must work correctly or it is sh_t. It must meet the standards it claims to meet. It must do the job it says it can do. Otherwise, I'm better off not using the tether.

In fact, this is the burn. If you are wearing a tether, secure in the knowledge that it will hold, you behave differently. A weak tether can kill you, since you would NOT have done a certain thing if you had known that. If Speirs had know the clip would not hold, he would have tied the tether around the jackline. But he didn't know that. You need to be able to trust your gear absolutely, not just "sorta." This is the contract. Who said the gear was not there to rely on? I would not go to the bow, in all conditions, with gear that was only a "back-up. That is what I would call... stupid.

It is possible people do not understand the severity of the failure. You couldn't give these away to climbers. They are suitable only for key rings or securing low-value gear.

 

[[70521]]

Ask them.

I dropped an email to Clipper this evening via their website pointing them at this thread and asking them if they employed any safety engineering methodologies, had a safety case or employed any safety engineers. I await their reply.

 

[Blue Sunray]

How many ocean crossings have you done, and how many times have you fallen on your tether?

Trite and irrelevant.

In fact, this is the burn. If you are wearing a tether, secure in the knowledge that it will hold, you behave differently. A weak tether can kill you, since you would NOT have done a certain thing if you had known that. If Speirs had know the clip would not hold, he would have tied the tether around the jackline. But he didn't know that. You need to be able to trust your gear absolutely, not just "sorta." This is the contract. Who said the gear was not there to rely on? I would not go to the bow, in all conditions, with gear that was only a "back-up. That is what I would call... stupid.

How very well put.

 

[lw395]

.....You need to be able to trust your gear absolutely, not just "sorta." This is the contract. Who said the gear was not there to rely on? I would not go to the bow, in all conditions, with gear that was only a "back-up. That is what I would call... stupid.
.....

What I think is stupid is operating boats in such a way that people are often falling on their tethers.
When I used to race on big boats, the culture was that you worked in a way that was basically safe. People relied on tethers very much less. The people who went to the wet end were fit strong people who could do the work and hang on at the same time.
The mindset was that falling was not an option.
Inshore, we never clipped on, so we were well used to doing the job without tethers.
We were sailors not abseilers.

The whole concept of yacht tethers in the UK hasn't really changed from that. For the cruising yachtsman it's probably still true that falling on your tether and being towed is something you absolutely must avoid.

If you want to run the foredeck as a climbing wall, then it's probably not just the tethers that need a re-think. Climbers would probably take a dim view of the whole jackstay concept.
Climbers are probably a poor comparison, because they work singlemindedly and methodically. They are not trying to carry half a storm jib or operate other gear. Maybe the work of a steel erector at height is a more relevant? Here AFAIK, the concept of 'fall prevention' is taken very very seriously and 'fall arrest' is a further safety net. I've only had slight involvement with this, but AIUI, if someone gets as far as 'fall arrest' there are inquiries, suspensions (sic) and possibly sackings.

 

[capnsensible]

But it's not real racing, is it? It's a long distance pleasure trip with a veneer of racing to generate a little excitement. Real racers would not have (pace the report) crew members who were too unfit to move around the boats.

I think you should read their website to actually understand it.

 

[capnsensible]

I pay the MAIB to do that for me.

You also pay the MCA to bring any prosecution if negligence is suspected.

 

[capnsensible]

I dropped an email to Clipper this evening via their website pointing them at this thread and asking them if they employed any safety engineering methodologies, had a safety case or employed any safety engineers. I await their reply.

The most positive response on this entire thread. Thank you.

 

[capnsensible]

With regards to report section 2019/113, Clipper Ventures has been asked to take account of any safety management guidance and direction provided by the MCA - The Maritime Coastguard Agency has been unable to find the resources so far to provide Clipper Ventures with guidance and direction and we have been waiting for them to contact us to look into maritime safety issues for 18 months. However, in view of this delay, we have had our systems assessed by two outside auditors.


Mmm. Full release: https://www.clipperroundtheworld.com/news/article/clipper-ventures-statement-on-maib-report

 

[penberth3]

With regards to report section 2019/113, Clipper Ventures has been asked to take account of any safety management guidance and direction provided by the MCA - The Maritime Coastguard Agency has been unable to find the resources so far to provide Clipper Ventures with guidance and direction and we have been waiting for them to contact us to look into maritime safety issues for 18 months. However, in view of this delay, we have had our systems assessed by two outside auditors.


Mmm. Full release: https://www.clipperroundtheworld.com/news/article/clipper-ventures-statement-on-maib-report

Why have they said that? It isn't the MCA's job to provide a free consultancy service.

 

[capnsensible]

We work to prevent the loss of life on the coast and at sea.
We produce legislation and guidance on maritime matters, and provide certification to seafarers.

From the MCA website.

 

[thinwater]

What I think is stupid is operating boats in such a way that people are often falling on their tethers. Yes. And that is an interesting discussion on its own.

The whole concept of yacht tethers in the UK hasn't really changed from that. For the cruising yachtsman it's probably still true that falling on your tether and being towed is something you absolutely must avoid.

If you want to run the foredeck as a climbing wall, then it's probably not just the tethers that need a re-think. Climbers would probably take a dim view of the whole jackstay concept. Since I have done as much climbing as sailing, on all sorts of mountains and on all sorts of routes, I would say that is not true. But I would say that a climbers is more likely to pay attention to what he has clipped and all possible fall trajectories. He knows, for example, just how difficult it will be to get back on the deck from over the rail. He will avoid it. He also very likely has a keen ability to hold on.

Climbers are probably a poor comparison, because they work singlemindedly and methodically. They are not trying to carry half a storm jib or operate other gear. Maybe the work of a steel erector at height is a more relevant? Here AFAIK, the concept of 'fall prevention' is taken very very seriously and 'fall arrest' is a further safety net. I've only had slight involvement with this, but AIUI, if someone gets as far as 'fall arrest' there are inquiries, suspensions (sic) and possibly sackings. No, you would be incorrect. What is true is that the rigging is taken very seriously and the function and rigging will be inspected after each incident.

Climbing is some times methodical (when the rigging is necessarily poor--climbing on ice and snow are sometimes problematic this way, with no trustworthy anchors available--don't fall). Other times it is rather chaotic, with falls coming frequently. But in this latter case the rigging must be methodical and of unquestionable reliability.

Much of the time I skip a tether. But there are times when working at the bow or leaning off the side where I do depend on rigging and jackstays, not just for fall protection, but in fact for suspension, so that I can work with both hands. I lean against the harness intentionally, not out of carelessness. Thus, it must be perfect. So it only makes sense to use gear that will not fail.

It's not the end of the world that a weakness was found in a piece of gear. This is how we learn what the gear must do and what failure possibilities are lurking out there. Now it is time to move forward. That's all.

And yes, I believe there is a shortfall in training among sailors regarding regarding fall protection. Climbers, I think, are more analytical when they look at this part of the gear. For them, the punishment for a gear failure or failure to use the gear properly is generally death. I switched to via ferrata clips long before the Clipper accident because the risk was obvious to to any climber. I also never rigged a jackstay to a cleat; the risk of cross loading and snagging was obvious. I used dedicated anchors.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I dropped an email to Clipper this evening via their website pointing them at this thread and asking them if they employed any safety engineering methodologies, had a safety case or employed any safety engineers. I await their reply.

Does that include "meeting a bloke in Gibraltar who said it all looked OK to him"?