Latest Clipper Ventures MAIB report

dom said:
That's easy, which of the Clipper practices do you find sup par? Any?

Also tethering, the comments so far have been mostly lifted from the MAIB report, or in ThinWater's case scientific papers. Hardly old bunny :rolleyes:
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Well that says it all really. No matter what equipment you supply, no matter what training you give, no matter what 'risk assesment' is written, it's still all down to the individuals to take responsibility for themselves and do what they have been told. Blame shifting to an organisation most people don't know, or worse don't want to know anything about is, in my opinion, a bit daft. And old bunny....:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
capnsensible said:
Have you ever been on any of the yachts or spoken to any of their trainers?

Do you never fly or drive anywhere after reading accident reports?

Just askin......
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I've not been on any of the yachts or spoken to any of their trainers. No desire to as I am not a racer.

The day job, safety engineering, requires me to read, investigate and write accident reports. I still fly, drive and take trains. It would be interesting to do the maths on crew miles sailed verses the number of fatal accidents and compare that figure with travel by flying, road and rail.

It would be interesting to see Clippers safety case documentation and if they apply any safety engineering principles to their risk assessment.

You asked....
 
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capnsensible said:
Well that says it all really. No matter what equipment you supply, no matter what training you give, no matter what 'risk assesment' is written, it's still all down to the individuals to take responsibility for themselves and do what they have been told. Blame shifting to an organisation most people don't know, or worse don't want to know anything about is, in my opinion, a bit daft. And old bunny....:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
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Similar arguments have historically been floated by the airline industry, car manufacturers, cigarette multinationals, big pharma, et al for years. No longer, for one risks being sued to kingdom come with such a defence.

Hence, whether it's Boeing with its 737 MAX 8, or British American Tobacco with its new vaping products: neither has gone near this line of defence.

I personally think the world is much better with the consequent improvements in safety and transparency. In that vein I can see no reason why Clipper shouldn't be compelled to sort out eminently sortable safety issues.

Not all agree, clearly!
 
capnsensible said:
Well that says it all really. No matter what equipment you supply, no matter what training you give, no matter what 'risk assesment' is written, it's still all down to the individuals to take responsibility for themselves and do what they have been told.
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"Use that improvised lifeline"

"Mend that broken generator with the electrode from an old battery."

"Keep pumping. We'll have today's leaks cleared in a few hours."

"Drink less. The water maker is still bust."
 
dom said:
Similar arguments have historically been floated by the airline industry, car manufacturers, cigarette multinationals, big pharma, et al for years. No longer, for one risks being sued to kingdom come with such a defence.

Hence, whether it's Boeing with its 737 MAX 8, or British American Tobacco with its new vaping products: neither has gone near this line of defence.
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JumbleDuck said:
"Use that improvised lifeline"

"Mend that broken generator with the electrode from an old battery."

"Keep pumping. We'll have today's leaks cleared in a few hours."

"Drink less. The water maker is still bust."
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Welcome to the world of offshore sailing. It's good for your soul.
 
capnsensible said:
Well that says it all really. No matter what equipment you supply, no matter what training you give, no matter what 'risk assesment' is written, it's still all down to the individuals to take responsibility for themselves and do what they have been told...
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A commercial operator has legal duties which can't be delegated to individuals. This includes the duty to make sure individuals do what they've been told to do.
 
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capnsensible said:
Have you ever been on any of the yachts or spoken to any of their trainers?

Do you never fly or drive anywhere after reading accident reports?

Just askin......
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I do expect recalls when safety gear fails to meet a standard it claims to meet (the Race clips do not pass the locking test--this test was conducted at less than 4 kg).

I also expect recalls when gear does not serve the intended purpose. The fall he took was very realistic, and there ARE clips that have been TESTED to withstand this mistreatment in commerce ( UIAA 121 type K, tested for side load--Wichard, Kong, West Marine, others). Side loading is absolutely going to happen. No amount of training can prevent it. A standard already exists that accounts for side loading. Spinlock knew this, since they started using clips that meet UIAA 121 K on the performance tethers before the incident.

And no, you won't find the Spinlock Race clips on Volvo boats or similar. They moved to via ferrata style clips years before. It feels like a case of using "traditional" gear. But is that an appropriate place to be nostalgic?

So yeah, I'm disappointed.
 
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Food for discussion. I don't have an answer.

It was stated that Clipper trained MOB procedure, but never train tethered MOB recovery. But does anybody?
* It is illegal (industrial safety regulations in all Western countries) to suspend a man from a chest harness. The load is known to cause permanent verve injury in as little as 30 seconds. Yes, there is a crotch strap, but it is not load rated. Thus, the sailor would be required to wear a secondary harness for the drill.
* The victim is very likely to get the crap beat out of him. He could drown even if it went well.

So how would you train it? A test dummy comes to mind.

For example, you would learn NOT to use a snap shackle, because they are hard to close under duress. A wire gate climbing carabiner is a MUCH better choice, as they are designed to work easily with one hand (cold) and not to snag.

And how would you answer the harness question (no-chest-only harnesses)?
 
thinwater said:
Food for discussion. I don't have an answer.

It was stated that Clipper trained MOB procedure, but never train tethered MOB recovery. But does anybody?
* It is illegal (industrial safety regulations in all Western countries) to suspend a man from a chest harness. The load is known to cause permanent verve injury in as little as 30 seconds. Yes, there is a crotch strap, but it is not load rated. Thus, the sailor would be required to wear a secondary harness for the drill.
* The victim is very likely to get the crap beat out of him. He could drown even if it went well.

So how would you train it? A test dummy comes to mind.

For example, you would learn NOT to use a snap shackle, because they are hard to close under duress. A wire gate climbing carabiner is a MUCH better choice, as they are designed to work easily with one hand (cold) and not to snag.

And how would you answer the harness question (no-chest-only harnesses)?
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Maybe I have an answer for you for once:

I have bought a set of these. Well thought through and nicely made. I have no connection save as a satisfied customer

https://www.teamomarine.com/
 
Another thought.

Speirs remained attached to the boat for some time. The problem was Spiers couldn't attach the halyard.

Why in heavens name is there no place to clip a recovery line? We should NOT be asking the person in the water to do that. We should be able to clip the tether from on deck (no leaning) and winch the guy up. All it would take is a tiny loop near the jackstay end, then cut the tether in the gap. I'm sure there is a clever solution, but this problem represents a recurring theme.
 
thinwater said:
Another thought.

Speirs remained attached to the boat for some time. The problem was Spiers couldn't attach the halyard.

Why in heavens name is there no place to clip a recovery line? We should NOT be asking the person in the water to do that. We should be able to clip the tether from on deck (no leaning) and winch the guy up. All it would take is a tiny loop near the jackstay end, then cut the tether in the gap. I'm sure there is a clever solution, but this problem represents a recurring theme.
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See post 35.
 
prv said:
Which?

Pete
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There is no 'which'.

To recover a man overboard casualty, there are a number of commercial solutions. I carried a helicopter rescue strop on my school yacht.

In order to be to be competent in a mob situation, practice is essential. Personally, I don't think many people do that enough. But like joining the Clipper Adventure, that is their choice.

I really like the life jacket that Minn linked to. For serious offshore sailing in grim conditions, a hood is a good idea too.
 
thinwater said:
Why in heavens name is there no place to clip a recovery line? We should NOT be asking the person in the water to do that. We should be able to clip the tether from on deck (no leaning) and winch the guy up. All it would take is a tiny loop near the jackstay end, then cut the tether in the gap. I'm sure there is a clever solution, but this problem represents a recurring theme.
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Minn said:
Maybe I have an answer for you for once:

I have bought a set of these. Well thought through and nicely made. I have no connection save as a satisfied customer

https://www.teamomarine.com/
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Minn, an excellent link to a great range of products. A backward facing lift capability and that inertial tether are excellent ideas. Tks :encouragement:
 
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