large amounts of petrol in cans coming onto our marina - HELP

[Wiggo]

Re: Brave, cowardly or just stupid?

[ QUOTE ]
But where is the evidence that what they are doing is so dangerous? How many marinas have gone up in flames as a result of people refuelling their petrol boats from cans?

[/ QUOTE ]
I still have the photos from my phone somewhere from the night that was mentioned earlier when someone refuelled a boat in Hythe marina from a jerry can with the engine still running. At the time, it seemed every fire engine in Hampshire was there. Several people were burned, one woman trapped below, one guy blown out of the boat and into the water by the force of the explosion.

Now if we allow for a little inaccuracy in the OP's report and say 5-10 boats being filled up with 1-200 litres (total) that seems credible. Putting 20 litres into a small skiboat a couple of nights a week is believable, and I can certainly see a group of boaters doing it at the same time as they go out together.

But whichever way you look at it, 100-200 litres -- 5 to 10 20 litre (illegal?) cans, or 20 to 40 5 litre cans -- is a lot of fuel to be lying around. With 5-10 owners and hence probably twice that many people milling around. I can easily see one person trying to start up while the boat next to him is still fuelling, maybe someone pulling a plug lead because an outboard won't start.

No point in trying to ban it, but education sounds like the route to go. Get 'em organised so that there is someone in charge to make sure all cans are sealed unless they're being used, all the empties are cleared away, no-one smokes, no-one tries to start up while people are fuelling etc.

 

[epervier]

A point that someone earlier made, tesco fuel is cheaper than the marina's fuel,

therefore it's reasonable to assume that's why these people are doing it,

bearing that in mind,

I just wondered how much would they pay not to be there when it all goes wrong?

 

[lovezoo]

Re: Brave, cowardly or just stupid?

Yes, accidents do happen, but not that often. The point is, refuelling petrol powered boats from jerry cans in marinas is not that dangerous an activity and is perfectly normal. I wonder how many people a year are killed in boating related accidents and how many of those were in explosions on petrol powered boats?

What other boating activities should be banned because they pose a risk (real or otherwise)? Waterskiiing on Windermere? Drinking alcohol whilst on a boat? Unlicensed skippers at the helm of a powerboat? Or what about crossing the channel without filling in an online form?

 

[benjenbav]

Re: Brave, cowardly or just stupid?

[ QUOTE ]
No point in trying to ban it, but education sounds like the route to go. Get 'em organised so that there is someone in charge to make sure all cans are sealed unless they're being used, all the empties are cleared away, no-one smokes, no-one tries to start up while people are fuelling etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Having spent some time with my son in the burns unit at Stoke Mandeville following a petrol fire I am very wary of the way petrol is handled when I am around.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Re: Brave, cowardly or just stupid?

It's not exactly a safe activity either and I know some places do restrict what you're allowed to do. More to the point you should try to reduce or eliminate risks where you can. You only get so much luck in this life and I'd rather try and rely on it as little as possible when the results of it running out are that severe.

Also it's not right in my view for you or me to take a risk that will severely injure or kill other people if they have a different view of that risk.


None of your examples below make any sense to me. We are describing a specific situation where an alternative is available and where it's pretty easy to reduce the risk. Comparing that to a generic activity like drinking on a boat is meaningless.

 

[Duster]

Re: Brave, cowardly or just stupid?

I agree, jerry cans are OK if used with care - been in use for over 50 years. A little more sense and cosideration on the part of the users would always help.
Many of us have to fill via cans - not for economy, but as waterside petrol is rare other than on the south coast and all but unheard of in Scotland. We have a rack in the back of the truck to hold and fill 6 at a time, them transfer with a siphon pump.
regards mikej

 

[lovezoo]

Re: Brave, cowardly or just stupid?

Sorry, but the OP seems to be more of a complaint about 15 or so horrible chavy "speed boats" cluttering the place up with jerry cans and making it smell of petrol, rather than a real safety issue. The OP also seems to have complained to the marina management and to H&S about the danger posed by 100 litres of petrol in jerry cans "taking out most of the marina". For whatever reason neither of them appears to think there is a realistic chance of this occuring, or are willing to take any action to prevent it happening. To my mind that suggests that nothing out of the ordinary or dangerous is taking place in that particular marina, other than owners of petrol engined boats are filling their tanks with petrol.

 

[BOATKID]

FWIW I use 5 gallon plastic fuel containers and a syphon hose which you wiggle and have to say it is a very efficient method of transfer - no mess no fuss

no -ones mentioned the hazard of bottled gas !!!

 

[AndieMac]

A point well made boatkid...........

Firstly, I would imagine that most UK marinas would be well run, with high standards of safety. There has to be a balance between over regulation and common sense in day to day matters. A south coast marina is not going to allow blatant abuse of safety regulations. If they don't provide fuelling facilities, there has to be an allowance for clients to be able to do so within reasonable parameters.

As Firefly said, if you knew what lurked below a filling station and what could happen, you would never go near one.

As mentioned just now, what about LPG? Now theres a potential drama waiting to unfold. Maybe this might effect too many of the 'other type' of marina leasee, you know, the ones with sensible boats, that have every nautical publication ever written!

It sounds to me the OP has issues with the marina management, and is at the very least one side of the story.

 

[jeni]

Hi all

Thanks for all the constructive advice re the above post. I have been trying to find out the rules and regulations rather than just go at the marina managment like a bull in a china shop and have now spoken to the local fire officer. He will be visiting the marina asap as he is most concerned re the amount of fuel being dispensed.

I have been informed that it the vapours that are so volatile and they can lie under the pontoons as its heavier than air. It is not only the amount that is the problem but that fuel continues to burn on the water and will spread with tide or wind. We have no saftey equipment - no way of reaching the shore should the pontoons burn and the fire officers was most concerned about the fact that the persons filling up were not controlling the situation (ie closing pontoons) as it would not go down well with the bertholders if they were told you could not go onto the pontoons for an hour or get off them or take your boat out while refuelling was taking place. Simply not practical.

Thanks for the pm's - it seems that there are strict laws about storage of fuel (that covers any petrol taken from a filling station by cannisters for any duration) and your car insurance is invalid if you carry more than the law allows unless you have a petrol licence. see link below from fire service

It is not that we wish to "just moan" about it as some replies indicate - rather we all wish to sort this out before an accident happens.

The reason this came up is due to a large fuel spillage a few weeks ago which was not cleaned up and as you can imagine it stank of petrol as it was spilled on the pontoons as well as in the water.

If the persons filling up are not going to take care when refuelling it will not be long before an accident may occur.

I understand that fuel is expensive to buy from a marina and being a sailing vessel we only have to put in a small amount of diesel. I have seen people bringing cans down to Torquay and Brixham even though the marinas have signs up banning it - so it goes on everywhere not just on our marina.

I have listed links below and having spoken to the RNLI saftey officer yesterday he tells me that they attend many fires caused by refilling or people being careless with petrol every year. Last year was the worst on record for deaths linked with refuelling and I have put a link from cornwalls fire service which was forwarded to me.



www.cornwall.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=7259
www.fireservice.co.uk/safety/fuelstorage.php
www.boatsafetyscheme.com/downloads/avoidingPETROL.pdf



It would seem from the post and replies etc that we as boaters are not clear on the laws or dangers regarding petrol. Or that boat insurance will not cover illegal or dangerous practice and thanks to the pm from the insurance guy re refilling.

What suprised me the most is the info forwarded on petrol it comes under the dangerous substances and explosive regulations (DSEAR)

Anyway to wrap up unless you have a licence to carry and have full training etc etc etc you are limited by domestic laws and have pasted and copied some info sent to me which is on www.hse.gov.uk/fireandexplosion/petroleum/faqs.htm

The limit is a maximum of two suitable metal containers each of a maximum capacity of ten litres or two plastic containers (which have to be of an approved design) each of a maximum capacity of five litres. These limits also apply to any containers kept in a vehicle parked in the garage or on the driveway (but not to the internal fuel tank of the vehicle). Under no circumstances should the petrol containers be stored in the home itself.

Anyone who wishes to store larger quantities than this, or use larger containers, is required to notify the local Petroleum Licensing Authority (PLA) and to store the petrol in a prescribed manner set out in the 1929 Regulations mentioned above - enquirers who want further details should contact their local PLA. Storage of more than 275 litres (60 gallons) of petrol requires a petrol licence - again, contact the local PLA.

Oh and a final note these laws do not apply to diesel

Thanks again for all the great info

 

[Otter]

Thanks for the OP.

 

[rickp]

Hmm, when you quoted the regulations, why did you miss the most relevant bit off, I wonder? I've added the first bit back and highlighted the relevant bit:

[ QUOTE ]
The Petroleum Spirit (Motor Vehicles etc.) Regulations 1929 and the Petroleum Spirit (Plastic Containers) Regulations 1982 limit the amount of petrol that can be kept in a domestic garage or within six metres of a building (e.g. most domestic driveways). The limit is a maximum of two suitable metal containers each of a maximum capacity of ten litres or two plastic containers (which have to be of an approved design) each of a maximum capacity of five litres. These limits also apply to any containers kept in a vehicle parked in the garage or on the driveway (but not to the internal fuel tank of the vehicle). Under no circumstances should the petrol containers be stored in the home itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

So in fact, that would appear to have nothing to do with your problem.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

....and the links quoted have nothing to do with accidents related to refuelling boats

 

[AndieMac]

Wouldn't be at all surprised if a certain yachtsman didn't receive a lease renewal for next year.

He'll be as popular as a snake in a lucky dip. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[PhilF]

he is trying to keep his life, easy to be mournful after the event

 

[Chrusty1]

Perhaps you could report back to the forums and let us know what the FPO's assessment of the situation is , once he has carried it out?

 

[Duster]

Wonderfull how selective folks can be in quoting regulations when it suits them. Seems a lot of fuss over very little to me. I am sure a polite word would sort things.
Everone seems to get so wound up about the potential for things to go wrong when in reality they rarely do - with this attitude so prevalent, it amazes me that so many people are prepared to use commercial flights!
I am pleased that I moor somewhere more friendly and tolerant.
Regards mikej

 

[benjenbav]

I actually think the OP might be a female...or else a bloke called Jeni. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[AndieMac]

Its all going to be ok, the caped crusaders will take care of everything.
They can front up with a folder full of council by-laws and a puffed up fire officer, because these poor pertrol powered souls no not what they do. If only they could see the light...... Amen.

 

[zt260]

I would of thought it would have been more prudent to have a word with the marina before involving the fire service,
This could blow up in your face (excuse the pun)

ash