Laptop v Chartplotter

[Duffer]

(1) I said I use a Yeoman plotter at the chart table which uses paper charts.

(2) I am not anti-laptop. I have used a laptop on board (with Pentium mobile chip) and did not find it 100% reliable. I also found it rather vulnerable to someone falling on it etc in rough seas. If powered from an inverter and transformer there must be around a 10% power loss (they both get hot) never mind the clutter and most laptops struggle to last more than 2 or 3 hours without a charge. Every laptop is different so I don't have an accurate figure for typical consumption but there seems to be a consensus around 70+ watts. I've subscribed to PC Pro for 10 years and emailed them on this subject but did not get a very helpful reply for this reason.

(3) My advice remains that if you can afford a dedicated waterproof cockpit-mounted chartplotter (ideally with radar overlay) then that will serve you better than a PC setup below for half the price which may crash at the worst possible moment. If you only sail in short hops then power consumption may well not be an issue but I know people who have complained of a laptop flattening their service battery on a channel crossing while we have no problem leaving our C-screen on all the way (on full brightness) and the autopilot for much of the way too! I simply don't believe that a normal laptop uses 20 watts or anything like it - the screens are twice the size, the processors more powerful and they have things like hard disks to power.

 

[Guest]

OK .... having run the GPSNav group for some time now and basically had a go at most PC based and also looked at various Plotter offerings .... I have to admit that a) I spent less than most ..... b) I dislike most PC offerings ..... c) have both PC based and Plotter based nav on board ..... + PDA if I really want to impress people !

Front line Nav now is via the Lowrance 3500C plotter with excellent screen resolution and I haven't detected any slow refresh or limit on that yet .... >

Lowrance 3500C deal includes a chart card to cover in good detail from Greenland to Corsica .... incl. western North Sea and all UK / France / Belgium etc. ..... ~ £450 delivered. (There is also the 3600Ci ... with internal antenna similar price)

Then we have PC based - where I swap between Seaclear (excellent FREE package that many commercial offerings could take lessons from !) and Maxsea .... >

and finally the PDA fed via Passthru on PC or via a NMEA splitter box .....>

splitter box >

As to stand alone handheld GPS .... I use a cheap eTrex and that does all I need as all facilities I need in excess are amply provided by the PC / PDA or Plotter .......

Total cost .... excluding Maxsea as that is not cheap and definitely not essential .... PC / PDA were already owned from work ..... about £550 ...... that's the eTrex, Lowrance Plotter and Seaclear + Ozi-explorer CE and few charts .....

You already have the 76 .... so that's GPS data ... you have the PC .... there's the screen, all you need now is a cable to connect them together and a program such as Seaclear and a few BSB charts or scans of your own admiralty jobs ....

Tip when scanning charts ...... draw on the chart in good soft black pencil a cross in numerous places on the chart with lat / long written next to them - these are then used when calibrating the scan sheets ..... as it is not necessary to re-join all the segments together for use .... maybe a chart stitched together in 3 parts ... is good enough - the program will jump to next chart automatically .... and being small are easier to load not being so memory intensive ....


Viola !

 

[tome]

Not sure whether to enter the debate as there seem to be some personal issues whenever this subject comes up! Also, I'm somewhat biased having been spoilt by linked 23 inch bridge ECDIS displays like this one

I should declare an interest as I run a business unit designing and building navigation equipment for a seismic survey company. We have long since given up on using laptops or PCs for navigation entirely due to reliability (and to a lesser extend power) issues. However, I mostly have to fund my own on-board equipment out of my pocket so no different from anyone else

We use a laptop on board for email, web-browsing, photo downloads etc and I have some charting software for passage planning. It's an HP Compaq nc6120 which was chosen for (amongst other things) the fact that it is still supplied with a serial port. Useful for snooping data from NMEA etc, but it's not amongst the cheapest on offer. It's powered from a Maplin DC-DC converter when on-board, but is put away in it's bag before we leave port. Even so, it has just had a new motherboard fitted under warranty

This year we tried out an E series display loaned by Raymarine. It's the E80 which worked well except that the display is a bit tiny (8 in) which means that you are forever zooming in and out. Here's the picture as we crossed back from Ireland, not exactly useful compared with a paper chart

Here's a zoomed display as we approach Longships (Lands End) which is rather more useful except that it displays such a small area compared with a paper chart

I'd like to try out the larger E series (E120) as it has 800x600 resolution compared with 640x480 on the E80 model. I certainly couldn't live with anything smaller, and the idea of using a PDA with its tiny screen I shall refrain from further comment.

Anyway, just my personal 2d worth...

 

[Sans Bateau]

The one issue I have with using a laptop is the cost of charts, even compared to Navoincs, say at £199, Maptech charts cover a small area, and I believe to get the same coverage as say a Navoinics module would cost loads more.

Like SBC, I too use a Lowrance 3500C, at the wheel, mainly for pilotage but it also has loads of tidal information, just where you need it. But as tome says, constrained by size, so thats why I choose a Yeoman at the chart table for the BIG picture, plus security. But of course electronic passage planning is so much easier.

Now, here I need some advise, I have a laptop, I have GPS (of course) and I also have Maptech charting software. Rather unusualy I also own a colour scanner that will scan up to A0. So how do I scan charts in BSB format? Cos if I could I might just start using my lap top a bit more!

 

[Guest]

As Tome is fully aware .... I was a Boat Driver for a reasonable period and even though I left Merch some years ago - I still keep up with ECS on Merch. ships when I visit as part of my Survey work ... I like to go on the bridge whenever possible and have a look at developments ....

Anyway back to our world ! Most people are looking for a convenient display that shows where they are and what's to be expected. Then follows the waypoints and route to follow. I agree that 5", 8" screens etc. are small - but for most they do the job ... I was amazed at the results from the Lowrance small screen.

As to a PDA - I did it as an experiment more than anything .... and to be honest more to think about setting up in the car with a suitable turn by turn nav program. It just seemed right to go for marine to see what could be done. It worked ! And if you were going into harbour or at night with nothing else .... it would do the job. Yes small - yes difficult to see in daylight ..... but it works.

As to PC based - I have posted often that you do not need a high end notebook to do this .... I have a Thinkpad IBM 600E with P2 processor ..... an ex works machine replaced when battery went .... it works very well and survives just about anything you throw at it ... apart from a bucket of sea-water of course !! It's compact, rugged and above all else cheap of ebay etc. Battery's are easily found and not so expensive - again ebay ...

With my Lowrance, my PC and Seaclear / Maxsea - I'm happy enough to do the Baltic Run ... with paper back-up of course ..... (don't forget you can print of chartlets from most pc packages ...... a bonus !) ..... creating a "Route-Book" in effect.

 

[Shuggy]

For what it's worth - I use a Sony Vaio (my work notebook) with a GPS mouse from eBay (£35 from Singapore) and seaProlite from Euronav (£99.95 for basic chartplotter software plus the whole of the UK chart-wise) and I think it's a complete bargain, having used Maptech stuff for a couple of seasons. But - the setup murders my batteries (5 amp draw even with fully charged notebook) and if I didn't have a motorsailer (a) I would abandon it in favour of something with lower power requirements and (b) have real issues around getting the laptop wet or even seeing it. It's a fantastic back-up for paper charts and I wouldn't be without it now.

 

[Ships_Cat]

Hey, yer getting into emotional claptrap - where did I say anything about your Yeoman Plotter??

Regarding your claims

Every laptop is different so I don't have an accurate figure for typical consumption but there seems to be a consensus around 70+ watts

and

I simply don't believe that a normal laptop uses 20 watts or anything like it - the screens are twice the size, the processors more powerful and they have things like hard disks to power

there you go again, exaggerating for the sake of yer own case and effectively admitting that you don't know what they draw - you just won't believe reality /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif.

You should not quote figures that you pretty much now admit that you don't know about. What you claim as the "consensus" (well the consensus amongst those who are ignorant of reality) is wrong. If you read my post and look at a few chargers you will see that it is the charger that is usually around the ratings you quote.

I am sitting using a notebook on board now and it is drawing between 12-15 watts or so (is a modern mid performance 1.8MHz CPU business notebook with nothing done to reduce power use) and all others I have used are much the same.

Using your own statement that notebook batteries discharge in 2 hours you will find that most notebook batteries are around 4 AHr (and for sake of example, the one on the notebook I am using now is) so means if discharged in 2 hours can only be drawing 2 amps ie around 22 Watts (the normally fitted 6 cell Li-Ion batteries are 10.8 volt). In fact most notebooks last longer on battery unless the battery is aged (which does not affect current draw) and 3 hours is typical so current draw is around 4AHr/3 = 1.33A ie around 14-15 watts.

Surprise, that is about what this notebook is using at the moment.

In fact, the whole boat is only using little more than the draw that you claim for a notebook alone (currently whole boat is drawing approx 6 A at 13.2 volts so a little under 80 watts), and that is with refrigeration on, radios on, instrumentation suite running (it uses little less than the notebook all by itself), as well as other minor consumers such as bilge alarm, etc.

So, you see, you are completely up the pole and your claims are entirely uninformed and misleading to others.

As I said, people, quote the drain when charging the battery and as you complain about about the battery lasting only a few hours it is clear to most, if not to you, that recharging the battery is the solution to that event. Again, charging the battery is not a net power loss to the boat as one is just transferring the energy from the boat's batteries to the laptop's (albeit with a small conversion loss) - the average use of the notebook over time, including any charge cycles remains the lower figure along the lines I have quoted.

I know you won't be convinced for reasons of technological blindness /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif. However, others may find the data useful though in making their decisions taking into account other matters such as how wet their boat is, whether they desire the more powerful navigation tools, ease of use and larger screen available from a notebook, boats power capabilities, etc.

John

 

[Gunfleet]

Have you ever thought of using one of those 8" touch sensitive lcd screens? Then you can have the laptop in a berth (say) all velcroed up for security and the screen appearing somewhere above the chart-table, like a plotter screen. The screens are getting common for car installations. I think I'm going to give it a try next season.

 

[Guest]

Scanning into BSB ....

Currently not possible as BSB format is Copyrighted.

It also has a second supporting format which was changed by Maptech from KAP to CAP to further prevent production by others. The BSB part is info and not really used in many charting packages ..... it is the KAP and later CAP file that has the actual graphic chart.

As to Maptech - you will not be able to scan into Maptech.

If you have a large scanner as you say .... then scan to jpg or other less mb hungry format and then use Seaclear ...... scan, load convert to WCI and calibrate ......

 

[ColdFusion]

Interesting web page about the effect of RAM on laptop batteries here

 

[Ships_Cat]

It is indeed interesting although they are talking of very small amounts of RAM (32 and 64MB) in today's terms. But maybe the same still applies - perhaps someone knows?

Thanks for pointing it out.

John

 

[BrendanS]

wonder how that graph would look on modern machines?

It's instinctive for me to go for massive amounts of RAM, for performance purposes. That graph though is well out of date, and newer machines have amazing technology to conserve power.

To the level that I can't use a slide show I put together if the laptop is on battery rather than mains power, as certain options are turned off if on battery

 

[Ships_Cat]

Whoops, I just edited my post (while you were posting) as I realised relooking at it that the article was old and talking small quantities of RAM on old machines.

If yer noticed was not a restating of myself type reaction to your comments Brendan with which I concur.

John

 

[BrendanS]

The power conservation of modern laptops is not very documented, as I found myself.

Put together a very fancy slideshow. Luckily I presented it to colleagues rather than clients, as it reverted to plain slideshow when on battery power, and took me a few hours of experimentation to discover what the reason was.

 

[Ships_Cat]

As long as your slideshow didn't become a sideshow /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Yes even an oldish 5 year old notebook here manages CPU speed, etc. Just now fired up and did a check on a recent 1.86GHz Pentium M machine and it seems to be sitting at 800MHz while on battery and nothing much else happening. I can't get core voltage but the tool says managed between 0.94 - 1.34v and I/O voltage the same.

Did you find any good reference while preparing your slideshow on what the various management strategies are?

John

 

[BrendanS]

All I know is that certain options get greyed out if on battery, and the one way I've found around it is to put the laptop into standby or hibernation whilst still on mains power, then the slideshow will work hours later even if not on mains power. Baffling, but shows that power management is not documented. Some of the cpu and os powermanagent strategies are documented, but it seems individual laptops have proprietory stuff that you can only do by seat of pants, and even then you'd need to be pretty much up to speed on computers to even notice the bugs.

 

[MapisM]

[ QUOTE ]
My advice ... chartplotter (ideally with radar overlay)

[/ QUOTE ]
Did you actually try one?
I did, and will stick to separate screens for as long as I'll go boating.
Space constraints permitting, of course.