Laminate sails v conventional dacron

[Sailfree]

Appreciate they are better but if my 43 will cruise at 6.5kts how much will laminate sails improve that speed in your opinion?

 

[yoda]

In year one probably not a lot but in subsequent years the Dacron will stretch and the laminate retain it's shape and you will keep Your speed up. same is probably true if you hold sail in too much wind the Dacron will stretch wher the laminate will retain it better (but it's not good for them).

Yoda

 

[Barnacle Bill]

I had laminates that didn't last as well as Dacron - they had a tendency to delaminate. That was 10 years ago, perhaps they've improved.

 

[flaming]

Hard/impossible to quantify the speed gain, and if won't be even across the wind strengths and angles.

Basically the stronger the breeze and the more upwind you're going the bigger the advantage of a good quality laminate.

 

[Daydream believer]

Laminate will hold the shape better but for less time than a dacron sail will be useable
the laminate will delaminate from flogging, rubbing on shrouds etc & fail rather dramatically
Dacron will start stretching from day one but will be useable for far longer than a laminate one
Laminate foresails are the worst for longevity

 

[lpdsn]

Laminate will hold the shape better but for less time than a dacron sail will be useable
the laminate will delaminate from flogging, rubbing on shrouds etc & fail rather dramatically
Dacron will start stretching from day one but will be useable for far longer than a laminate one
Laminate foresails are the worst for longevity

You can extend the life of a laminate sail considerably by looking after it in just a few simple ways. Fit spreader patches, never ever leave the leech fluttering, so make sure adjusting the leech line is ergonomically convenient. Always ease the outhaul when flaking. Protect it from UV - even if it means taking it off the boom when not in use.

You can also get laminates made much more durable for cruising.

 

[savageseadog]

Ideal compromise............Laminate with Taffeta linings

 

[bedouin]

There are other alternatives - for "performance cruising" I use a Vectran-style fabric. Holds its shape much better than dacron and outlasts both dacron and laminate.

 

[snooks]

Ideal compromise............

The idea compromise is Hydranet. Not that it's a compromise at all.

Dacron longevity with the non-stretch properties of laminates. Only downside is the cost.

Back to the OP. Cruising laminates retain their shape longer, but last around 8 years. Dacron could last twice as long, it can be recut when it goes out of shape. But as soon as they are put up they start to stretch and it's an irreversible process. The more you sail in stronger winds the more they stretch. The more you leave them under tension (boom out haul and genoa halyard), the more they stretch. As Dacron stretches the draught of the sails increases. In gusts the draft increases more (from fore aft stretch and top to bottom- made worse with stretchy halyards) so the boat heels more and you slow down. Cruising laminates don't stretch, and to make the most of it you'll need low-stretch halyards, something like dyneema.

So as a rough guess after around 3 years bog standard Dacron sails would lose to laminates, and go down hill from there.

It's also worth pointing out there are many different grades of Dacron, from the OEM sails that are as cheap as chips so the mfg can honestly say a "sail away price" to high performance variants, a tighter weave with a hight thread count and weight, some with thicker threads, or in the case of Hydranet, dyneema threads interwoven into the fabric.

 

[dunedin]

As ever so many other factors, but in my mind key ones are
(a) do you like sailing to windward, or tend to shove the engine on - laminates and hence good sail shape are most beneficial upwind
(b) do you have a furly mainsail - laminate will reduce the penalty, but a conventional Dacron sail with battens will still be miles faster
Our boat was very fast upwind with the race laminates, but minor damage in the genoa at circa 4 years old resulted in it being a write off
Hence our choice for cruising replacements was good Dacron with foam luff on genoa (essential) and large roach on mainsail with battens

 

[TimBennet]

I would support Hydranet as being the best upgrade from Dacron for cruisers.

It also does not suffer from (for me) one of the big drawbacks of laminates for cruisers and that's mould, mildew, algae forming within the cloth. If you either moor up a river with lots of trees or have a stack-pack type mainsail cover which keeps you sail permanently wet, then laminates get pretty manky and you can't wash off the 'internal' growths.

 

[Xcinquemila]

All comment proof their point.
There is on missing, the sailmaker would need to be told where you are going to with your sails.
As for my cruising I have looked at Doyle, Alstrom, and North Sails.
The package diffences were big, so finally I did opt for :
NZ3898-001 Full Batten Mainsail Dyneema SRP 95 1 $15,461.53
NZ3898-002 Furling Genoa Dyneema SRP 75 1 $10,332.54
NZ3898-003 Selftacking Furling Jib Dyneema SRP 95 1 $8,911.29
NZ3898-004 C1 RF Gennaker 60-70% Girth Aramid Laminate T1 ZL06 1 $6,401.11
NZ3898-005 G2 Gennaker Norlon NO 75 1 $8,273.18
NZ3898-006 Storm Trysail PolyPreg 10.4 L Orange 1 $1,835.78
NZ3898-007 Storm Jib PolyPreg 10.4 L Orange 1 $1,917.68

Most important was the srp, if you choise your sails to light, you get obviously the issue of stretch more, it also cuts your performance light weather versus "stormy weather", so depend thus where you going.
alternative offer;
QAS100211-001 Full Batten Mainsail 3Di 760 (Aramid/Dyneema) 19,600 Dpi 1 $23,443.00
QAS100211-002 Furling Jib 3Di 760 (Aramid/Dyneema) 22,400 Dpi 1 $16,370.00
QAS100211-003 Inner Jib Dyneema SRP 95 1 $6,630.00
QAS100211-004 A0 Asymmetric Aramid Laminate T1 NLGZ70 1 $8,664.00
QAS100211-005 A1.5 Asymmetric Norlon NO 75 1 $6,882.00
QAS100211-006 A4 Asymmetric Norlon NO 150 1 $5,833.00
QAS100211-007 Storm Jib Polyester High Visibility 10.4 L Orange 1 $2,525.00
QAS100211-008 Storm Trysail Polyester High Visibility 10.4 L Orange 1 $2,638.00

http://www.uk.northsails.com/SAILS/...ed400/tabid/24417/language/en-US/Default.aspx
order:
NZ3898-001 Full Batten Mainsail Dyneema SRP 95 1 $15,461.53
NZ3898-002 Furling Genoa Dyneema SRP 75 1 $10,332.54
NZ3898-003 Selftacking Furling Jib Dyneema SRP 95 1 $8,911.29
NZ3898-004 C1 RF Gennaker 60-70% Girth Aramid Laminate T1 ZL06 1 $6,401.11
NZ3898-005 G2 Gennaker Norlon NO 75 1 $8,273.18
NZ3898-006 Storm Trysail PolyPreg 10.4 L Orange 1 $1,835.78
NZ3898-007 Storm Jib PolyPreg 10.4 L Orange 1 $1,917.68
NZ3898-008 Furling Inner Jib Dyneema SRP 95 1 $7,879.90

Boat = Xc50
http://www.x-yachts.com/range/xc/xc-50/

So I opted for heavier sails.

 

[charles_reed]

There are other alternatives - for "performance cruising" I use a Vectran-style fabric. Holds its shape much better than dacron and outlasts both dacron and laminate.

Vectran reinforcement is the compromise which I've adopted. All the sailmakers to whom I've spoken have condemned laminates as unsuitable for cruising, in terms of longevity, cost and handling.
Strangely they were happier with a laminate roller genoa than main, but felt a radial cut textile genoa was a better compromise.

 

[tudorsailor]

I replaced baggy dacron with Vectran for furling main, yankee and staysail. Replaced the main one season and definitely saw an improvement in speed of more than 1/2 kn. Next season replaced the head sails and got another 1/2kn.

All sails came from Hood in Spain

TS

 

[Pete7]

I would support Hydranet as being the best upgrade from Dacron for cruisers.

It also does not suffer from (for me) one of the big drawbacks of laminates for cruisers and that's mould, mildew, algae forming within the cloth. If you either moor up a river with lots of trees or have a stack-pack type mainsail cover which keeps you sail permanently wet, then laminates get pretty manky and you can't wash off the 'internal' growths.

Looked at Hydranet 18 months ago but the cost was nearly twice the price of a premium quality Genoa for a 31ft yacht. Yes I am sure it would be very nice but it would be difficult to justify for a smaller cruising yacht. That said, there may be an advantage for a larger yacht which would require heavier cloths.

Pete

 

[charles_reed]

I would support Hydranet as being the best upgrade from Dacron for cruisers.

It also does not suffer from (for me) one of the big drawbacks of laminates for cruisers and that's mould, mildew, algae forming within the cloth. If you either moor up a river with lots of trees or have a stack-pack type mainsail cover which keeps you sail permanently wet, then laminates get pretty manky and you can't wash off the 'internal' growths.

All the major textile weavers produce "reinforced" weaves, of which Hydranet is only one.
I personally chose Vectran reinforcement as woven by Contender - similar fabrics woven by Bainbridge.
Polynant are not the only weavers around - the Contender version allegedly has far higher UV resistance than Hydranet

 

[KellysEye]

>my 43 will cruise at 6.5kts

You say it is cruising speed but is it hull speed? You can work out the hull speed with 1.34 x the square root of the waterline, the answer is 6.57 so there is no point in changing from Dacron unless you want the occasional .07 of a knot in the right conditions. I wouldn't bother to spend a lot of money for that small increase.

 

[vyv_cox]

There are other alternatives - for "performance cruising" I use a Vectran-style fabric. Holds its shape much better than dacron and outlasts both dacron and laminate.

I bought Hood Vectran when it still had that name. It is now called Vektron for copyright reasons. My sails are now around 12 years old, extensively used, and as far as I can see their shape has not changed at all. My previous dacron genoa was blown out in three years.

 

[TradewindSailor]

Is Vectran type cloth more chafe resistant than Dacron?

 

[onesea]

>my 43 will cruise at 6.5kts

You say it is cruising speed but is it hull speed? You can work out the hull speed with 1.34 x the square root of the waterline, the answer is 6.57 so there is no point in changing from Dacron unless you want the occasional .07 of a knot in the right conditions. I wouldn't bother to spend a lot of money for that small increase.

Modern boats can break that rule but same sentiment. If you want to increase speed I would look to reducing weight, distributing weight correctly, a folding prop (if you don't already have), sail trim, reducing wind-age, a clean bottom

Also the most significant difference with good sails is that bit between a close fetch and close hauled. The rest of the time slightly baggy sails make very little difference.