Laminate sails v conventional dacron

BigEmUp said:
One knot is my guess from having changed from baggy dacron to carbon/vectran. But downwind, not so much. In light winds more relative improvement (stiffer sails).
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The really big difference we notice is in pointing ability. We raced against another Sadler 34, deep keel against our shallow, but his Dacron sails getting on a bit. We pointed 5 - 10 degrees higher than him and over 20 miles upwind beat him by half an hour.
 
Sailfree said:
Appreciate they are better but if my 43 will cruise at 6.5kts how much will laminate sails improve that speed in your opinion?
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The choice of sails really comes down to how people want to sail. Dacron is perfect for those wanting to travel to pleasant destinations with minimum fuss.

However, better sails are a must if you want to go quicker. But better sails need better sail controls which not every boat is set up for - e.g. adjustable backstays on fractional rigs, cunningham, mainsheet traveler, biggish winches, powerful kickers, etc. Obviously all of this all takes more work to operate! If this is the way you want to sail you'll be totally frustrated say beating to windward with a half furled pregnant elephant style Dacron genoa, no matter how long it lasts!

Finally, cruising laminates are a very different animal to racing sails and many/most of the old problems are sorted, so I would be careful of sweeping conclusions that laminates are hopeless in UV, D4 sails can't be reefed, etc.
 
I asked the question as existing boat has heavier than usual Bainbridge material as its been in charter use. I suspect the genoa will require replacing first when I take it out of charter.

In info gathring mode at present.

Boat itself does not have a slippery shape as 1998-2005 Sunfast/Sun Odessey range in the 43 was very beamy in the front to get the hull capacity but as we race dinghys its always nice to go as fast as sensible.

Have feathering prop, fully battened main (although a DS we did not go for in mast furling). Set up is cruising so no adjustable backstay or fractional rig and traveller is on coach roof.

Obvious way to go is get a massive wheel should be the equivalent of go faster stripes on a car!!
 
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flaming said:
No.

Laminates are faster out of the box, especially if you actually make adjust controls such as cunningham, outhaul, kicker etc rather than just set and forget as laminates are much more shapable due to lower stretch.
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It's my experience that laminate sails respond less to cunningham and halyard tension as the sailcloth doesn't gather in the same way that Dacron does. Laminate is not as stretchy, so tensioning the halyard or cunningham doesn't seem to move the draft around as much. Outhaul and kicker on the other hand produce a very direct effect.
 
Sailfree said:
I asked the question as existing boat has heavier than usual Bainbridge material as its been in charter use.
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Oops sorry, hadn't seen the charter bit - laminates HATE flogging and so will HATE most charter crews! Why not have a chat with a decent sailmaker and discuss some options for your new genny. Then you can replace it with a DFS-type "Sale-Must-End" boatshow trash before chartering?
 
The fully battened main shouldn't flog, so laminates may have a longer life span. One big benefit of laminates and Vectran types that have not been mentioned is that they are significantly lighter than Dacron.
 
JumbleDuck said:
But Dacron's better for those first three years?
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No, the difference between laminates and Dacron would be less for the first 3 years, laminates still providing superior performance (all things being equal of course). But after 3 or so years the performance of bog standard Dacron gets gradually worse, where as laminates retain their performance advantage for their life....until they delaminate. :0)
 
Not all Cruising laminates are the same.

For an Atlantic Circuit I had a new furling genoa made from Bainbridge Pentex with taffeta on both sides. Because the reinforcement runs at 90 degrees The sail suffered badly from a "hinge" effect on the leech and required much patching to complete the course. I understand that Pentex laminate made by Dimension-Polyant has the reinforcement at 60 degree angles reducing this problem.

I'd never go back to having dacron headsails.
 
dom said:
Oops sorry, hadn't seen the charter bit - laminates HATE flogging and so will HATE most charter crews! Why not have a chat with a decent sailmaker and discuss some options for your new genny. Then you can replace it with a DFS-type "Sale-Must-End" boatshow trash before chartering?
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Operative bit is "been in charter". Now made it clearer. When its out of charter and I invest in new sails just trying to decide whether laminates will be worth the extra.
 
mrming said:
It's my experience that laminate sails respond less to cunningham and halyard tension as the sailcloth doesn't gather in the same way that Dacron does. Laminate is not as stretchy, so tensioning the halyard or cunningham doesn't seem to move the draft around as much. Outhaul and kicker on the other hand produce a very direct effect.
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I tend to agree on the above comments. We went from an ancient baggy jib to a cruise laminate -tri radial jib and found a HUGE difference in pointing ability. We're not racers but like sailing well. That encouraged me to go for the same material in a fully battened main. Another useful improvement!.
I appreciate the sails can suffer from reefing marks or furling in lively conditions, but I think it was worth it. I still sail a performance dinghy with a laminate main (mylar sandwich) and that performs well under almost all circumstances. You can't reef it , but with enough outhaul & kicker you can modify the power output a bit.
I didn't bother going for 3 reefs with the new main, just two, which with a small genny is fine for upper 20Kts. Much more and a genny alone is adequate!

Graeme
 
Hi Sailfree,

My 43DS has a 100% Quantum laminate genoa which is simply superb. Previous owner spent a LOT of money on the sails/rig. He wanted the optimum performance/longevity compromise and I think did very well.

Look forward to seeing you out sometime this season!

Best wishes

Julian
 
Hazymoonshine said:
Hi Sailfree,

My 43DS has a 100% Quantum laminate genoa which is simply superb. Previous owner spent a LOT of money on the sails/rig. He wanted the optimum performance/longevity compromise and I think did very well.

Look forward to seeing you out sometime this season!

Best wishes

Julian
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Any idea of the approx cost please
 
interesting how many people give the thumbs up to laminates. I guess things have improved over time.
I would be keen to know how many people have found them satisfactory on ocean sailing having done say, an Atlantic circuit?
We have a new rip stop 135% Dacron genoa and main (fully battened) but also have a good genoa 105% and fully batten main. Our sailmaker confirmed the old set are both serviceable retaining good shape. We intend to use the old main for crossing the Atlantic but keep the new one as spare. Both genoas will likely be used if we are running down wind.
 
savageseadog said:
Probably. Dacron will fatigue along the leech too, over time but the process can be very quick with laminates.
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There are at least 5 different types of laminate sail cloths in the market, are you certain that you statement is valid for all types?

savageseadog said:
Biggest problem with laminate sails is the leech which tends to weaken very quickly with the slightest flutter.
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