Lagos Marina Prices and discounts

[richardsussex]

Hi Folks (my first proper post!)

Currently scheduled to go to Sant Carles Marina in Spain summer 2012. However, as you may have heard the Spanish have just made law (22 DEC 11) a new rule that owners of boats over 11m will be treated like house-owners in Spain. This means that if you spend more than 6 months a year in Spain or Spanish territorial waters you must take on liabilities for Spanish income tax etc. There's a whole lot more but it is quite complex and the info is around elsewhere but basically it is not good news.

Well, I don't feel too good about paying for a marina berth 12 months a year if I can only be on the boat in Spain for 6 months. (and that means 6 months per year, not just periods in excess of 180 days or whatever).

So, I am thinking of going back to plan A, which was Lagos. My understanding is that (broadly) you can spend as much time as you want on your boat although not in excess of 180 days at a time. The workaround seems to be to exit the country with documented absence for a few days at the right time in the Tax Year.

So, my questions are:

1. Does anyone know if Lagos are offering discounts for 12-month rentals?

2. Lagos Band IIIa on the tariff is max 11.99m length and beam max 4.0. "Area" - length x beam is 47.96. My boat is Length 12.53m, beam 3.89m, "Area" being 48.74, ie some 1.6% over the rate card.

Many marinas allow a small margin on the stated dimensions, eg 5%, 10%.

Has anyone any experience of Lagos Marina allowing such a margin?

As has been pointed out on this site, marinas are inclined to show some flexibility in the current climate.

My SSR states the correct measurements. With 20:20 hindsight maybe I should have been a bit economical with the truth when I applied for the SSR.

3. Are there any similar legal nasties brewing for Portugal, as per above for Spain?

Any advice gratefully received.

 

[chinita]

I am in Lagos and there is plenty of room.

As you say, you fall into class 4 and I am not too sure how they might view dropping into a lower band.

They seem to allow some flexibility over larger beamed boats and cats over the winter but, as for a 12 month contract, I don't know.

One of the frustrations here is that the three summer months cost almost as much as the remaining nine months. Many boats go on the hard for the summer (as we do) or scuttle off to the Med or Azores.

Don't forget that you need to add 23% VAT to their quoted figures.

If you like, I can call into the office with your dimensions with a story about 'a friend who is interested.....' and see what they say.

The over 183 day rule applies in Portugal as well. I am sure there are those who go over that period but I don't know any and have not heard of anybody being caught out.

The people in the marina seem to fall into one of three categories; ex-pats who have bought property and taken up Residencia and who keep a boat here, other EU residents who spend extended periods of time on their boats (like us) and cruisers spending the winter here. I don't know of any who permanently keep their boat here and spend the entire year living aboard.

Hope this helps. PM if you like.

 

[Billjratt]

How much would it cost to re-register your boat? and how long to recoup...
When I was down your way I was in a part 1 registered boat so the declared length was from the forward edge of the rudderpost to the stem.
In my case that left a few feet unaccounted for at the stern...
The marina used the registration document to calculate the area, which is what you mention.
So, a little off the beam may be less obvious to the roving eye, but could cause you to be put in a tight berth, beside a fat boat, so better to shave the LOA and accept you may end up on a shorter finger - most of them are short by our standards anyway. You only need to go to 12.32metres and modify or remove all those boasting transfers from the hull!

 

[maxi77]

From my experience in Albufeira they stick to the pricing bands but then discount that. All the marinas seem to have vacancies so discounts will be available.

My suggestion would be to get a cheap flight here and visit all the marinas and see what deals are available and balance that against the facilities. Every one has their own preferences over marinas, so you may find one of the other ones suits you better. Accomodation is cheap now as is car hire, though best to keep of the now tolled motorway.

 

[chinita]

It just occurred to me that you may not have been looking at the correct rate.

On the Tariff page you need to drag the vertical black bar on the right hand side.

When you drag it down you will see 'specials' - 9 and 12 month contract prices.

As you will see, there is no discount for 12 months - quite the reverse unfortunately.

 

[chinita]

My suggestion would be to get a cheap flight here and visit all the marinas and see what deals are available and balance that against the facilities. Every one has their own preferences over marinas, so you may find one of the other ones suits you better. Accomodation is cheap now as is car hire, though best to keep of the now tolled motorway.

I agree. 'Time spent in recce is seldom wasted'!

Let me know if you visit Lagos before mid-May and I will give you the tour. In the meantime, plenty of info on lagosnavigators.net.

 

[richardsussex]

Many thanks to all of you for advice and opinions on berthing etc.

For information I have visited (on a short holiday) Lagos, Vilamoura, Portimao and Albufeira so hopefully have been able to make an informed decision.

It rather looks as if there isn't much in the way of bargains to be had on rates, and given the parlous state of Portugal's public finances, the impressions from lagosnavigators.net is that yotties are seen as easy prey for tax hikes and we can expect to see more of that in the future.

I think that I shall stick with going to Spain, where there are similar issues but at least the Marina that I am going to is pushing for business and is prepared to be a bit flexible on the rate-card.

So, thanks again, especially to Chinita - I shall look you out when calling at Lagos en route and buy you a beer at the bar

All the best for your sailing in 2012

 

[maxi77]

Many thanks to all of you for advice and opinions on berthing etc.

For information I have visited (on a short holiday) Lagos, Vilamoura, Portimao and Albufeira so hopefully have been able to make an informed decision.

It rather looks as if there isn't much in the way of bargains to be had on rates, and given the parlous state of Portugal's public finances, the impressions from lagosnavigators.net is that yotties are seen as easy prey for tax hikes and we can expect to see more of that in the future.

I think that I shall stick with going to Spain, where there are similar issues but at least the Marina that I am going to is pushing for business and is prepared to be a bit flexible on the rate-card.

So, thanks again, especially to Chinita - I shall look you out when calling at Lagos en route and buy you a beer at the bar

All the best for your sailing in 2012

When doing our research discounts were not offered, but as soon as we arrived in a boat things were very different, Lagos offered 10%, and Albufeira 15%. I also know of another getting 10% in Albufeira. Discounts tend to be authorised by senior management so rarely offered to casual enquirers, but when the boat is there they will act to stop it leaving, though the process can take afew days.

 

[rallyveteran]

When doing our research discounts were not offered, but as soon as we arrived in a boat things were very different, Lagos offered 10%, and Albufeira 15%. I also know of another getting 10% in Albufeira. Discounts tend to be authorised by senior management so rarely offered to casual enquirers, but when the boat is there they will act to stop it leaving, though the process can take afew days.

I'd be interested in hearing more about the 10% discount you were offered in Lagos. When was this? Was this 10% off one of the long-term packages?

 

[maxi77]

I'd be interested in hearing more about the 10% discount you were offered in Lagos. When was this? Was this 10% off one of the long-term packages?

September 2010 for 12 months but Mrs Maxi didn't like the noise from the bars where they put us so wwe moved on.

 

[chinita]

September 2010 for 12 months but Mrs Maxi didn't like the noise from the bars where they put us so wwe moved on.

How many nights were you in Lagos and on which pontoon?

I should add, this boat has been here ten years, the previous owners (here for seven years) and myself have threatened to leave several times. No discount has ever been offered - and I have the invoices to prove it.

I was even charged an extra day at visitors rates when I got my timings wrong and came into the marina one day earlier than I had booked.

I remonstrated over that but got nowhere.

You must have extraordinary powers of negotiation.

 

[maxi77]

How many nights were you in Lagos and on which pontoon?

One, about 3 down from the bridge, I am aware that others are less troubled by carousing from the bar.

 

[chinita]

When doing our research discounts were not offered, but as soon as we arrived in a boat things were very different, Lagos offered 10%, and Albufeira 15%. I also know of another getting 10% in Albufeira. Discounts tend to be authorised by senior management so rarely offered to casual enquirers, but when the boat is there they will act to stop it leaving, though the process can take afew days.

Can I just get this right.

After just one night in Lagos you managed to circumvent the process of 'a few days' and secure a 10% discount for an annual contract?

If so, I shall be seeking a meeting with Ingrid tomorrow!

 

[maxi77]

Can I just get this right.

After just one night in Lagos you managed to circumvent the process of 'a few days' and secure a 10% discount for an annual contract?

If so, I shall be seeking a meeting with Ingrid tomorrow!

That was what we were told when we checked in and enquired, as we never took it any further it was a very general statement not a specific offer

 

[chinita]

Right; thanks.

When I enquired about discount for CA Members I was told that it was 10% for ONE night during the high season (15 June - 15 Sep). There were no other discounts.

Regarding the bars. Of the four which had live music, only one is still active. The Amuras Bar is 90% patronised by Portuguese and has a live band playing Fridays and Saturdays. By law they are supposed to stop at midnight but often don't. If people are feeling aggrieved they can call marina security on Ch 9 and they will stop the fun.

An Irish 'Sports' Bar which catered to the round ball needs of UK and Irish men on holiday. The nature of this bar seemed to encourage foul language and obscenities which went on into the small hours (normally with a focal point of the bridge about 50m from us) - which I find much more difficult to tolerate than loud music. It has now closed down - permanently.

 

[maxi77]

Right; thanks.

When I enquired about discount for CA Members I was told that it was 10% for ONE night during the high season (15 June - 15 Sep). There were no other discounts.

Regarding the bars. Of the four which had live music, only one is still active. The Amuras Bar is 90% patronised by Portuguese and has a live band playing Fridays and Saturdays. By law they are supposed to stop at midnight but often don't. If people are feeling aggrieved they can call marina security on Ch 9 and they will stop the fun.

An Irish 'Sports' Bar which catered to the round ball needs of UK and Irish men on holiday. The nature of this bar seemed to encourage foul language and obscenities which went on into the small hours (normally with a focal point of the bridge about 50m from us) - which I find much more difficult to tolerate than loud music. It has now closed down - permanently.

It was the music up till 12pm (not a weekend) followed by the slow drunken return over the bridge taking about 2 hours that got to Mrs Maxi, Having had an early start from Sines yours truly slept like a log, but I am more used to noise anyway.

Mrs Maxi slept through her first night in Albufeira despite there being a bar that stayed open to 4am but they do not tolerate noise there at all. There we were offered a variety of deals depending on the berth. I suspect the best offers are about the middle to end of September when people are looking for over winter berths

 

[ksutton]

Right; thanks.

When I enquired about discount for CA Members I was told that it was 10% for ONE night during the high season (15 June - 15 Sep). There were no other discounts.

Regarding the bars. Of the four which had live music, only one is still active. The Amuras Bar is 90% patronised by Portuguese and has a live band playing Fridays and Saturdays. By law they are supposed to stop at midnight but often don't. If people are feeling aggrieved they can call marina security on Ch 9 and they will stop the fun.

An Irish 'Sports' Bar which catered to the round ball needs of UK and Irish men on holiday. The nature of this bar seemed to encourage foul language and obscenities which went on into the small hours (normally with a focal point of the bridge about 50m from us) - which I find much more difficult to tolerate than loud music. It has now closed down - permanently.

I had a winter contract there for 2010/11, loved the location, town and balmy winter weather, but hated the "regular" noise from the bars. Would have probably returned there for 2011/12 if it hadn't been for that.
Interesting what you say about the Irish bar, went in there once, not a very welcoming hostelry, food was like a UK pub in the old days, never went back and not surprised it failed.
I was amazed that the marina management have put up with the slow demise of their marina, non returning and permanently departing berth holders for the sake of bar rental income, probably due to lack of foresight and weak management structure.

 

[chinita]

I had a winter contract there for 2010/11, loved the location, town and balmy winter weather, but hated the "regular" noise from the bars. Would have probably returned there for 2011/12 if it hadn't been for that.
Interesting what you say about the Irish bar, went in there once, not a very welcoming hostelry, food was like a UK pub in the old days, never went back and not surprised it failed.
I was amazed that the marina management have put up with the slow demise of their marina, non returning and permanently departing berth holders for the sake of bar rental income, probably due to lack of foresight and weak management structure.

Well, things have changed this winter. As I said, only one place producing noise and only at weekends.

Two more marina restaurants have closed until April this week - one of them being Pizza Hut! At one point in December there were only two drinking/eating establishments continuing to trade.

The usual post-New Year influx of UK tourists did not materialise. None of the dolphin watching boats has operated since late november.

Signs of the downturn are evident all over town with small supermarkets, cafes, pharmacies all closing down.

And what do the Government do? - Impose unworkable motorway tolls on the only decent road on the Algarve!

I am just glad I do not own property here.

 

[ksutton]

Thanks for the update Chinita. But that's very sad news for the town of Lagos and its going to take years to get over this.

 

[maxi77]

Well, things have changed this winter. As I said, only one place producing noise and only at weekends.

Two more marina restaurants have closed until April this week - one of them being Pizza Hut! At one point in December there were only two drinking/eating establishments continuing to trade.

The usual post-New Year influx of UK tourists did not materialise. None of the dolphin watching boats has operated since late november.

Signs of the downturn are evident all over town with small supermarkets, cafes, pharmacies all closing down.

And what do the Government do? - Impose unworkable motorway tolls on the only decent road on the Algarve!

I am just glad I do not own property here.

Interesting 2 new bar/restaurants opened in Albufeira Marina as well as a chandlers with laundrette, and another clothes shop. Tour boats do tend to lay up for the winter but lots of pre-season maintaince of boats going on so still in business. Yes the A22 looked very quiet when we drove over it this afternoon, though it seems there may be a sensible system coming in for hire cars very soon.