Knots or not knots?

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peterb

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downthecreek said:
I sailed recently with friends in a biggish, newish Dehler. They got a tight riding turn on a genoa sheet winch and seemed baffled - there was even talk of cutting the sheet. Nobody on board knew how to tie a rolling hitch.

Downthecreek to the rescue! ;)
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Another thread (nominally dealing with ensign etiquette) had drifted to knots. Now they're (apostrophe in the right place?) part of the general subject of ropework, one dear to my heart, so I reckon they could justify a thread of their own.

Yes, I've also had to restrain someone from cutting their genoa sheet. He'd whipped out a great sheath knife, because we were beating up a narrow channel, had tacked and found ourselves with a riding turn, hove-to, and forereaching towards a sandbank. I managed to stop him, then gybed out of the hove-to and ran back down the channel while we sorted out the riding turn. But he didn't know how to tie a rolling hitch (or rather, he did, but got the pull the wrong way round.

Now the rolling hitch is one of the eight knots in the RYA's Competent Crew syllabus:figure-of-eight, reef, sheet bend, double sheet bend, clove hitch, round turn and two half hitches, bowline and rolling hitch. And a year before, this man had taken a Coastal Skipper course, at which I know he had been able to tie all eight. But he hadn't practised them, and in particular he hadn't practised them in use.

Experience shows that the two knots that people have problems with are the bowline and the rolling hitch. The rolling hitch is perhaps rarely used, so some excuse. But the bowline? One of the most-used knots on most boats? Why do people have problems? Is it just lack of practise, or is there some deeper rooted cause?
 
peterb said:
But the bowline? One of the most-used knots on most boats? Why do people have problems? Is it just lack of practise, or is there some deeper rooted cause?
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Me, I blame the rabbits!

If only people would forget about the rabbits and learn to tie a bowline properly all would be well. Nothing could be simpler.

I share your liking for ropework. And, of course, the simple elegance of a good knot, used correctly. :)
 
Bowline has to be lack of practice. It is not a difficult knot to tie.

At Sea Scout Camp I gave all the Watch leaders 1 hour to come and show me they could tie a bowline with a threat of loosing 100 points for their watch if they fluffed it and then the potential to gain 200 points if their entire watch could tie it by the end of the day.

4 out of the 5 did it first time. The one who didn't came back with their entire watch later in the day to gain 200 points!
 
Karouise said:
Bowline has to be lack of practice. It is not a difficult knot to tie.

At Sea Scout Camp I gave all the Watch leaders 1 hour to come and show me they could tie a bowline with a threat of loosing 100 points for their watch if they fluffed it and then the potential to gain 200 points if their entire watch could tie it by the end of the day.
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Agreed. Sometimes I get someone who can't quite get it, so I go at it until he can get it right three times in a row. Then I ask him to tie it 50 times, while he can still remember it. Seems to work!
 
Bowline knot

If only peeps would forget about loops and rabbits disappearing down holes but learn the turn-of-the wrist routine there's be no probs - even doing one behind your back blindfold, which is really showing off!
(Thinks: you do all know this trick don't you?)

Being made to tie 50 is counter-productive IMHO; if taught properly it becomes as unforgettable as riding a bike.
 
My pet hate is crew who cannot tie fenders on with a clove hitch - instead use a combination of a rolling hitch and round turn & 2 half hitches, with a few extra turns and hitches just to make sure.

And then they complain when I send them forward to undo their handywork !

John
 
The turn of the wrist routine works well if the bight is towards you, but I have never been able to figure it out if the bight is away from me (as if the standing part is coming from behind, round a bollard in front of me and back to me).
 
barfly4657 said:
If only peeps would forget about loops and rabbits disappearing down holes but learn the turn-of-the wrist routine there's be no probs - even doing one behind your back blindfold, which is really showing off!
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It is that flick of the wrist that needs the practice to become instinctive, hence the 50 times.

And I suppose that you know the half-reef-knot method, for tying with the loop away from you?
 
I seem to have waited my whole (frighteningly long) sailing career for the opportunity to show off my rolling hitch proficiency. In my minds eye I see the riding turn appearing on the highly stressed genoa sheet winch and step bravely forward with my spare line and finely honed rolling hitch skill only to find that the helmsman has headed up a bit and the turn has shaken itself out. Bah.
To keep my skill intact I've have had to resort to using the rolling hitch to attach my snubber to the anchor chain and to attach the hammock to the forestay.
My day will come.
I did once, whilst strolling down a dock, flick a bowline, one-handed, into a mooring line tossed to me from the deck of a yacht and drop the loop over a bollard without breaking step. I got applause for that one!
 
shmoo said:
The turn of the wrist routine works well if the bight is towards you, but I have never been able to figure it out if the bight is away from me (as if the standing part is coming from behind, round a bollard in front of me and back to me).
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If the bight is away from you, say from right to left around a fixed object, tie a half hitch (bring the working end over the standing part and back up through your bight) , pull the working end to capsize the half hitch and then follow the working end round the back of the standing end and down through your new loop.

Works a treat.
 
Thanks pteron. I can see how that would work. I need to get my hands on some rope now...

It will save me from having to walk round the other side of things just to be able to tie the dammed knot!
 
pteron said:
If the bight is away from you, say from right to left around a fixed object, tie a half hitch (bring the working end over the standing part and back up through your bight) , pull the working end to capsize the half hitch and then follow the working end round the back of the standing end and down through your new loop.
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That's the one I call the half-reef-knot method, and you're right, it works well. Particularly when putting a new sheet on the foresail. On several occasions I've struggled to get the sheet off (without cutting it) because someone has used the 'flick of the wrist' method when they're the wrong way round. It looks just like a bowline, but it jams solid.

Do you also know the capsized marline spike hitch method? Very useful; it's won me several drinks!
 
Make a simple slipknot. Pass the loose end of the rope through the eye, then pull the slipknot through as if you were going to remove the knot. The eye pulls the loose end through with it and a bowline results. (There are two ways to tie the slipknot - you need to do it so that pulling the loose end of the rope will tighten it)

It's useful because you can do the clever bit beforehand then, when you're ready, pass the loose end where it needs to go, pass it through the eye and it's done.
 
ChrisE said:
I dunno for sure but a rusty memory tells me that 'rolling hitch' is a generic term for knot that will take the load off another rope or spar.
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The generic term is 'stopper knot'. Rolling hitch is one specific knot.

In this link, the animated version is used for tying to a rope - the second turn overlaps the first. The photo below right shows how to tie it round a rigid pole or bar - the second turn lies alongside the first. The second variant performs very poorly when tied round a rope.
 
snowleopard said:
The generic term is 'stopper knot'. Rolling hitch is one specific knot.

In this link, the animated version is used for tying to a rope - the second turn overlaps the first. The photo below right shows how to tie it round a rigid pole or bar - the second turn lies alongside the first. The second variant performs very poorly when tied round a rope.
Click to expand...

Oh.

Incidently, I saw said second variant being used in anger, just last week on my hols, by the crew of the Vendettes that ply between Ile de Brehat and the mainland.
 
I use the first variant every day. I use it to attache the mooring bridle to the anchor cable. I use a slippery version, i.e. the last half hitch is made with a bight so it can be pulle out quickly. It has never failed me in over 200 nights at anchor.
 
IMO, ALL knots, bends, hitches should be capable of being untied ....

on a dark wet stormy night after they've been loaded on the foredeck/up the mast/wherever by just simply breaking the knot. bend, hitch or whatever it's called with your fingers.

IMO, the standard as taught RYA bowline jams and is as useless as a fart in a thunderstorm. It should be taught to be laid as either a Breton, Inuit, Panama, or side laid bowline.

One knot that is missing from your list is the Alpine Butterfly .... It's another unjammable knot.
 
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