volvopaul
Well-Known Member
I'd agree with your view, I have a mid 2000 year phantom 43, I would not buy the new slab sided fairlines at any price, they seem too mfi inside now for me.
Kevin Gaskell (CEO) leaves Fairline
- Thread starter ari
- Start date
I'd agree with your view, I have a mid 2000 year phantom 43, I would not buy the new slab sided fairlines at any price, they seem too mfi inside now for me.
Illusion
Well-Known Member
Ditto on all your points, have a very similar outlook and came away from SIB's very content. Although some of the new features and interiors are nice, I wouldn't swap our T47 for any of the current crop of sub 50ft boats, unless I was after a marina only based boat.
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admillington
Well-Known Member
The T47 is one of Fairline's most successful models. Great Sea boat, Great Engine room and excellent build quality. A friend had one when we were in Chichester and I was shocked by how good the fuel consumption was.
admillington
Well-Known Member
Tweets removed from Twitter!
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Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
I was never sure why an ex MD of BMW UK and Porsche UK would want to move into a slow moving cottage industry like boat building in the first place and why Fairline would have employed him. Shifting mass metal in the car industry is very different game from making high value boats in tiny numbers and by the sound of his tweets, Gaskell realised that too. My guess is that if there was any difference of opinion, it would have been about investment in the business to move into the sector beyond 78ft. Rumour has it that Fairline have had plans for years to open a coastal manufacturing plant to enable them to build bigger boats but that takes massive investment. I guess that Better are only interested in sweating the business to maximise short term profit in order to facilitate a sale. Lets hope that the next owners have deeper pockets
volvopaul
Well-Known Member
Good point mike, my late DAd always told me to take a little from a lot, (car industry) boat building def not.
I think Fairline could if they had the investment to build away from Oundle do well but would have to be flexible by means of Customisation to the largest models, they could then accommodate buyers where Princess fail in flexibility of customising.
sonvida2
Active Member
We flew over to Southampton pretty much with the idea of viewing the latest models and the new Sq 42 in particular. Trevor Betts noticed our disappointment when he showed us aboard and reckoned that it was because we were used to bigger boat interior. He then showed us the Targa 50 & Sq 50 and although we didn't say it to him, we were disappointed with the new modern interiors. We have a lot of problems with these new wider and deeper interiors as they are not too easy to move around and I can just imagine problems at anchor or underway.
We then looked at the Princess 43 and felt at home site straight away.
We then looked at the Princess 43 and felt at home site straight away.
sonvida2
Active Member
Exactly how we felt too.
rubberduck
Well-Known Member
Some boats, not specific to Fairline I might add, seem to being built down to a price, OK with the smaller stuff but when you go a bit bigger, do buyers seriously want to save a few bob at the expense of sufficient power etc etc ?
pan
Well-Known Member
Seems to me you have to look at the whole picture, Better Capital buys out RBS leaving them in control, CEO dismissed after difference of opinion (strategy?), as venture capital maybe they are lining up another overseas buyer for the Fairline brand and don't want others to scupper the deal… just speculation of course!
Nautical
Well-Known Member
I'd agree with you on that one RD, was looking at a 95' + Flybridge yacht at Cannes, I am stood there looking at it thinking something seems a bit odd, couldn't put my finger on it, walked down a few more boats to the smaller stuff from the same builder and there I am looking at a 40' sport cruiser with the exact same sizing of Fendering, port holes, hatches, rails, teak etc. Spot on wise for a 40' but looks mad on an almost 100 footer. Normally you would expect to see at least double the sizing / weight etc of equipment on a 100' but if you use the same stuff throughout the whole range from 35' - 120' you can save a ton of money, it just looks a bit pants on the bigger stuff, then again most buyers wouldn't notice so who cares, the bottom line looks better.
diligaf
Well-Known Member
FL seem to have been cutting back on quality ever since Better Capital bought it. Just look at the quality of the last proper boats (Targa 47, Phantom 50, SQ58 etc) compared to the new T/SQ 50 and the 48's. Getting more Prestige than Princess - sad times for what was once one of the big 4, then 3 now a shadow of its former self.
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Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
I have to say that I noticed it at last year's SIBS. I looked at 2 SQ models and the apparent finish was disappointing; the salesman was trying to put a brave face on it but you could sense that even he wasn't impressed. Having said that, nearly all manufacturers have been cutting costs and in the middle of a recession you have to do that if your market and your margins are shrinking. I think the trick is to hide it from your customers; maybe Princess are better at doing that than others
jfm
Well-Known Member
I get your point but I'm not sure I agree Princess are doing that particular thing well. Where Princess are doing extremely well in my book is their styling and design, of which their glazing advances are but one nice example, but the cost cutting is unfortunately in your face rather than hidden, imho. Trevor's post #31 above is about Princess, I'll bet. When you look a their boats you are extremely struck by some very attractive design features and a good overall look and feel, but if you stare a bit longer you see cost cutting everywhere (too-small diameter stainless steel tube, silicone sealant splodged, no windshield for the driver of the 82 flybridge, 60amp shorepower lead on the 88 flybridge, incandescent lighting, and so on). This is a pity because if they fixed these things their boats would be compelling
MapisM
Well-Known Member
LOL, Deleted User point exactly, I reckon.
He said "the trick is to hide it from your customers", not to hide it from jfm!
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Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
I must admit to not having looked too closely at new Princesses apart from a quick whizz around at boat shows but I suppose it serves to prove what I'm saying. The attractive styling and design features take your eye away from the corner cutting and it's only experienced buyers who really notice these things during the course of a close up inspection. You could say the same thing about Sunseekers too although IMHO the corner cutting is more obvious. But as I say, it must be very difficult for boat builders to achieve significant cost savings in the teeth of a recession without customers noticing
Nautical
Well-Known Member
I would be taking a different approach, in a recession (if there still is one) I would slash production and up my game on the quality stakes even if it means the price goes up or I take a cut on margins/ or cut out the dealers and use the margin to force the quality / design higher than before. With luck you make it through but at the end you are ahead of the game and a better perceived brand than any of the others.
Unless I am a nut job in my thinking, why would you want to give your customers "less" when you hit recession ? you want to be giving them more, more quality, more features, more value than the next guy. If I am out buying a boat (or any luxury product) in a recession, I am not looking for the cheapest thing out there, I'll save that mentality for my groceries, electric, gas and banking services, but if I am buying my dream , my passion I sure as hell don't want a cheapo version of it. Neither do I want to see a builder slashing prices of new builds, that's going to ultimately affect second hand values and therefore screw the brand for the future.
I've had this argument before with builders reps, "we'll cut out this and chop out that and make this bit cheaper and the customer won't know except the headline price will be cheaper" . NOOOOO !, they'll just look at what you are showing and go Jeez , that's terrible quality compared to what you were building before, no thanks. It seems that people (builders) forget that buying a boat is a hugely expensive business, anyone looking to buy a £1/2m boat in a recession isn't short of money but is on the look for the best quality for his hard earned.
Would you spend £1m on a yacht that was sort of "OK'ish" or would you spend £1.2m for one that was just absolute pure quality and ability, way ahead of anything else? , if you can afford £1m you can afford £1.2m and common sense I know which one is going to be worth a lot more come resale so quids in , buy the best quality you can afford.
Unless I am a nut job in my thinking, why would you want to give your customers "less" when you hit recession ? you want to be giving them more, more quality, more features, more value than the next guy. If I am out buying a boat (or any luxury product) in a recession, I am not looking for the cheapest thing out there, I'll save that mentality for my groceries, electric, gas and banking services, but if I am buying my dream , my passion I sure as hell don't want a cheapo version of it. Neither do I want to see a builder slashing prices of new builds, that's going to ultimately affect second hand values and therefore screw the brand for the future.
I've had this argument before with builders reps, "we'll cut out this and chop out that and make this bit cheaper and the customer won't know except the headline price will be cheaper" . NOOOOO !, they'll just look at what you are showing and go Jeez , that's terrible quality compared to what you were building before, no thanks. It seems that people (builders) forget that buying a boat is a hugely expensive business, anyone looking to buy a £1/2m boat in a recession isn't short of money but is on the look for the best quality for his hard earned.
Would you spend £1m on a yacht that was sort of "OK'ish" or would you spend £1.2m for one that was just absolute pure quality and ability, way ahead of anything else? , if you can afford £1m you can afford £1.2m and common sense I know which one is going to be worth a lot more come resale so quids in , buy the best quality you can afford.
ari
Well-Known Member
I suspect the problem comes when you're a mass producer with huge factories, staff and overheads rather than a one off builder making boats one at a time, and the competition's boats are £1.1M...
You can make all of yours £1.2M and lovely, and sell the odd one to a 'JFM' that gets it whilst your factories gather dust and your overheads cripple you. But if you can build down to a price, undercut the competition by £100,000, produce something that is still a very decent boat albeit not the be all and end all, and keep you workers busy and your factories full, then maybe it's a bit of a no brainer.
gjgm
Well-Known Member
Depends on who you are talking about, surely. If I bought a Riva, I wouldn't expect Ikea fittings.I don't expect tops from any UK mainstream builder on whose boats I have walked onto at a show. Mind you, I think it is an age thing , boats that is, not me. Look at alot of older well built boats and the quality of build is still there, IMHO. Sure, tops is still available, but then you aren't talking UK builder prices, surely, and if you have some uber expensive plant, you need some volume, and that means affordable volume, going through.
Can't recall the name, Privateer? Went on one of those a few years back.. then walk onto a UK boat. Hey, I dont know maybe the former had cheapo engine installations or whatever, but IMHO..WOW.. that was build quality. Hmm so it cost 2-3 times as much, but hey ho
Can't recall the name, Privateer? Went on one of those a few years back.. then walk onto a UK boat. Hey, I dont know maybe the former had cheapo engine installations or whatever, but IMHO..WOW.. that was build quality. Hmm so it cost 2-3 times as much, but hey ho
Nautical
Well-Known Member
That's probably why I will never be a CEO of volume boat builder
, building down instead of up goes against the grain. On the other hand I don't see other luxury industries following suit. While one dislikes comparing the car industry to the boat industry for obvious reasons, if you take a small sector of the car industry like the mega expensive, super fast , super complex supercar business, none of these co's thought to make a cheaper version of a Ferrari F12 by stripping out the paddle shift box in favour of a cheaper manual version and thinking "there we go that will sell more of them!". When you get into the stratosphere of super cars like the P1, 918, Veyron, Zonda etc (of which collectively probably sell as many units as £1m yachts) it is about cramming as much quality and tech into the product as you can and if it jacks the price up another 10% so what. OK so the demographic and profile of a Supercar buyer is a little different and there are a lot more people interested in supercars than yachts. But, again I can't see the mentality of building something costing £1m (I'll say that again ONE MILLION POUNDS) that is no more than a toy / past time / hobby a bit cheaper or less quality than the other guy just to shave a few % off the price.
Maybe I am off base but I couldn't imagine being swayed to buy a yacht for £1m that was just Ok and average when I could have the absolute best for £1.1m or whatever, jeez I am spending a £1m +, I want what I want and I want the best, I don't want to be looking over my shoulder as I leave the dock and think , "bummer, I wish I spent the extra £100k , I only got the average'y one :-( "
, building down instead of up goes against the grain. On the other hand I don't see other luxury industries following suit. While one dislikes comparing the car industry to the boat industry for obvious reasons, if you take a small sector of the car industry like the mega expensive, super fast , super complex supercar business, none of these co's thought to make a cheaper version of a Ferrari F12 by stripping out the paddle shift box in favour of a cheaper manual version and thinking "there we go that will sell more of them!". When you get into the stratosphere of super cars like the P1, 918, Veyron, Zonda etc (of which collectively probably sell as many units as £1m yachts) it is about cramming as much quality and tech into the product as you can and if it jacks the price up another 10% so what. OK so the demographic and profile of a Supercar buyer is a little different and there are a lot more people interested in supercars than yachts. But, again I can't see the mentality of building something costing £1m (I'll say that again ONE MILLION POUNDS) that is no more than a toy / past time / hobby a bit cheaper or less quality than the other guy just to shave a few % off the price.Maybe I am off base but I couldn't imagine being swayed to buy a yacht for £1m that was just Ok and average when I could have the absolute best for £1.1m or whatever, jeez I am spending a £1m +, I want what I want and I want the best, I don't want to be looking over my shoulder as I leave the dock and think , "bummer, I wish I spent the extra £100k , I only got the average'y one :-( "