Keeping a safe lookout.

[Seajet]

Irellivant, still. Assess and manouver. Simple.

" Here lie the bones of Mike O'Day, who died maintaining his Right Of Way;

He was right, dead right, as he sailed along, but now he's as dead as if he'd been wrong "

 

[john_morris_uk]

" Here lie the bones of Mike O'Day, who died maintaining his Right Of Way;

He was right, dead right, as he sailed along, but now he's as dead as if he'd been wrong "

That always was a stupid ditty. It doesn't make any sense except to demonstrate that stupidity is stupidity. It also shows a complete lack of understanding of IRPCS. (And the obvious repost that there's no such thing as a right of way vessel!)

Assess and take action as appropriate.

Show me anyone anywhere who is suggesting you stand on and allow yourself to be in a collision...

And what's this got to do with the discussion about how one best keeps a proper lookout?

 

[Seajet]

You've just said it - just after me - by ' assess and move as approtiate ' - ie use common sense...:

And it's not a stupid ditty as it gets the message across; even you as a marine remembered it !

 

[john_morris_uk]

You've just said it - just after me - by ' assess and move as approtiate ' - ie use common sense...:

And it's not a stupid ditty as it gets the message across; even you as a marine remembered it !

It is stupid, because this mythical sailor wasn't 'right, dead right as he sailed along'. He either stood on into danger or wasn't keeping a proper look out so he wasn't right (correct) at all.

Its doubly stupid because it encourages bad practice in avoiding collision. i.e. It encourages the 'I just keep out of the way of everyone' brigade who are actually causing confusion and irritation to others users of the water as they wonder what on earth these 'trying to keep out of the way characters' are going to do next. Instead of being predictable, they do unpredictable things, like making major alteration of course and speed when they are the stand on vessel.

 

[ditchcrawler]

I do not find my spray hood a problem and can see over it and through the canopy windows as well as around the sides.
I like having a spray hood up but I do not denigrate others who choose not to. Surely it is up to the individual to decide what works for them.
There is no right or wrong solution, but judging by the number of boats that have them, which is at least 75% of the boats in my marina they do seem to serve a purpose.

 

[Sandyman]

; even you as a marine remembered it !

Nah. Royals never remembered anything They were always a bit short in the old brains department
We used to wind them up all the time. Eventually, they would resort to threats of violence which
meant we had won
My favourite was: Royal Marines hit the deck......slap slap slap slap..........naughty naughty deck

 

[{151760}]

If I'm the 'give way' vessel, I like to make it clear if possible, to the 'stand on' vessel that I've seen him and will give way, with a wave, or a change of course. By which I mean, for example, if I'm on port tack approaching a starboard tack vessel, I will bear away before it's strictly necessary, if the other chap's looking so that he understands that he can, in fact stand on.

 

[john_morris_uk]

If I'm the 'give way' vessel, I like to make it clear if possible, to the 'stand on' vessel that I've seen him and will give way, with a wave, or a change of course. By which I mean, for example, if I'm on port tack approaching a starboard tack vessel, I will bear away before it's strictly necessary, if the other chap's looking so that he understands that he can, in fact stand on.

Seems perfectly proper and reasonable and its what we try to do too.

 

[geem]

Well I'm not bragging about being in the Caribbean, just talking about real life; my chum's sprayhood - and transparent panels - is as good as it gets, he spares no expense on safety - and I have enough experience and judgement to know how clear plastic works, ta very much.

I chatted with my ex-Nimrod pilot chum yesterday, he reckons yachts are very difficult to spot on even top military surface search radar; ' much the same as a diesel sub snorting '.

Another chum who has been a fisherman all his life - also inshore & offshore lifeboat crew - reckons he might spot buoys with makeshift reflectors on radar in calm conditions, but when the wind & waves come, that's your lot mate !

Whos bragging? UV protection in the tropics is as important as weather protection in the Uk. The sprayhood has multiple uses. So if you are so knowledgable on sprayhood material maybe you should quote the manufacturers of said quality window material that your friend uses rather than quote stupid references to military aircraft that have fook all to do with sailing.
In my experience of having a HR type fixed screen prior to removing it to install a full sprayhood, the visiblity through the fixed screen was pretty poor when there was lots of salt spray about.
You may chose to sail without a sprayhood but you are in a minority. We have enough room to see around ours or over it such that we can easily see forward so we never need to drop it.

 

[dom]

Whos bragging? UV protection in the tropics is as important as weather protection in the Uk. The sprayhood has multiple uses. So if you are so knowledgable on sprayhood material maybe you should quote the manufacturers of said quality window material that your friend uses rather than quote stupid references to military aircraft that have fook all to do with sailing.
In my experience of having a HR type fixed screen prior to removing it to install a full sprayhood, the visiblity through the fixed screen was pretty poor when there was lots of salt spray about.
You may chose to sail without a sprayhood but you are in a minority. We have enough room to see around ours or over it such that we can easily see forward so we never need to drop it.

So you removed a fixed Hallberg-Rassy type glass screen because it salted up and replaced it with a super-duper crystal clear plastic sprayhood, which you now look either around or over.

Bizarre.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Well I'm not bragging about being in the Caribbean, just talking about real life; my chum's sprayhood - and transparent panels - is as good as it gets, he spares no expense on safety - and I have enough experience and judgement to know how clear plastic works, ta very much.

I chatted with my ex-Nimrod pilot chum yesterday, he reckons yachts are very difficult to spot on even top military surface search radar; ' much the same as a diesel sub snorting '.

Another chum who has been a fisherman all his life - also inshore & offshore lifeboat crew - reckons he might spot buoys with makeshift reflectors on radar in calm conditions, but when the wind & waves come, that's your lot mate !

Not my experience when approaching the Lizard in thickish fog and hailed by one of her majesties customs cutters asking for passage details etc After passing over my details that I was on route to Falmouth direct from the Azores I asked how visible was I on radar to be told that they had first picked me up at a range of 20 miles south and west of Ushant and had monitored me since.

 

[{151760}]

I would imagine the sea state has a lot do with the radar visibility of a yacht.
How abut a sprayhood with flat sides made of a radar-beam-reflecting material?

 

[johnalison]

Not my experience when approaching the Lizard in thickish fog and hailed by one of her majesties customs cutters asking for passage details etc After passing over my details that I was on route to Falmouth direct from the Azores I asked how visible was I on radar to be told that they had first picked me up at a range of 20 miles south and west of Ushant and had monitored me since.

Could it be that you were picked up by a French shore station and the information relayed to Cornwall?

I think I have answered my own question.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Could it be that you were picked up by a French shore station and the information relayed to Cornwall?

I think I have answered my own question.

I don't think so he did say they had a good radar signal, the reason that I remember the discussion so well was that I had changed the radar reflector from a Firdell to an Echomax and was wondering how effective it was and wether I should have got an active type.

At the time he and I confirmed that he was 12 miles away and seeing me well, there was a good swell running as there had been a blow in the north western approaches for the previous few days.

 

[Seajet]

So, you had a good radar reflector - it wasn't the boat they saw on radar...

 

[dom]

I don't think so he did say they had a good radar signal, the reason that I remember the discussion so well was that I had changed the radar reflector from a Firdell to an Echomax and was wondering how effective it was and wether I should have got an active type.

At the time he and I confirmed that he was 12 miles away and seeing me well, there was a good swell running as there had been a blow in the north western approaches for the previous few days.

Very interesting: as a matter of interest which model was it and do you per chance recall your angle of heel? The reason I ask is that the MAIB looked at this a while back and noted re the Echomax 230:

"The Echomax EM230 demonstrated good peak and average RCS performance compared to the other products but its stated performance level drops significantly beyond an elevation angle of 5˚. The Echomax 230 tested failed to meet the total angle >0.625m2 aspect of ISO 8729."

​

The question I'm curious about, which unfortunately one can't answer without a control, is whether your commendably high radar vis was due to the Echomax as opposed to some whizzy system operated by the UKBF.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Very interesting: as a matter of interest which model was it and do you per chance recall your angle of heel? The reason I ask is that the MAIB looked at this a while back and noted re the Echomax 230:

"The Echomax EM230 demonstrated good peak and average RCS performance compared to the other products but its stated performance level drops significantly beyond an elevation angle of 5˚. The Echomax 230 tested failed to meet the total angle >0.625m2 aspect of ISO 8729."

​

The question I'm curious about, which unfortunately one can't answer without a control, is whether your commendably high radar vis was due to the Echomax as opposed to some whizzy system operated by the UKBF.

I was probably approaching something like about 20 degrees of heel the gunwales were under and I was reaching at the time ( funny how you remember things)
I had replaced the Firdell because of unfavourable reports the year earlier and it did not comply with RORC at the time wheres the Echomax did I seem to remember.

 

[dom]

I was probably approaching something like about 20 degrees of heel the gunwales were under and I was reaching at the time ( funny how you remember things)
I had replaced the Firdell because of unfavourable reports the year earlier and it did not comply with RORC at the time wheres the Echomax did I seem to remember.

Interesting, I guess the UKBF's set-up must detect a radar passive rig/dinghy with little more than a chunky o/b engine at a decent range, so I suppose it's poss they were just seeing your engine?

BTW I know exactly what you mean about remembering details, especially towards the end of a long passage. Just yesterday I asked the missus if she recalled a bumpy trip in the Western Approaches, but it didn't ring a bell. Then came the exclamation, "Oh you mean the time the chicken fell out of the oven!"

 

[flaming]

Watching a newish 50 odd feet Moody design yacht leaving a berth in a busy creek in SW Turkey the other day I was very surprised to see that the guy at the helms view ahead was almost totally obstructed by the yachts cabin superstructure in front of him. He was standing on his tip toes at the helm try to see other craft and swimmers in front of him. I am not generally a critical person but surely the design is not safe and impractical for sailing.

I sailed one a few years back. Sure the view wasn't quite as good as the view from the helm of a stripped out racer, but I didn't have a problem driving it out of port down a narrow channel. A non issue in my experience.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Interesting, I guess the UKBF's set-up must detect a radar passive rig/dinghy with little more than a chunky o/b engine at a decent range, so I suppose it's poss they were just seeing your engine?

BTW I know exactly what you mean about remembering details, especially towards the end of a long passage. Just yesterday I asked the missus if she recalled a bumpy trip in the Western Approaches, but it didn't ring a bell. Then came the exclamation, "Oh you mean the time the chicken fell out of the oven!"

And perhaps the 45Lb CQR an 300 foot of chain up front