Skylark
Well-Known Member
Suggest that you read the thread where I said in response to the OP:-
Keel/Rudder design
- Thread starter coopec
- Start date
Hallberg-Rassy
Well-Known Member
Well, if you don't write on matters relating to keel and rudder design because you have no qualifications, why do you pontificate about legal issues?
pvb
Well-Known Member
I don't think coopec has a legal qualification; he describes himself as a retired accountant.
Skylark
Well-Known Member
No pontification at all. You’re free to think my views are pompous but they are not dogmatic. I said several times “possibly libellous”
You appear content that someone with clearly demonstrated polarised views of fin keel boats lays claim that the biggest boat builder in the world “everyone seems to think it was poor workmanship”.
The boat in question was damaged and there is no supporting evidence to show who “everyone” is.
I’m afraid that I think letting such statements go unchallenged is unjust and unfair to Beneteau.
And for the record, it doesn’t matter who made the boat, Halberg Rassey or Moody, I’d take the same view.
Skylark
Well-Known Member
Skylark
Well-Known Member
There are certainly prima donnas on these pages who love to take offence almost as much as they love to dish it out. So I can't be totally straight faced when I read such slightly lop sided views.These people know who they are, we know they are they are.
Some are prepared to stand up against injustice, be it racism or jokers on an Internet forum ?
Others hide behind the curtains and prefer making snide comments to the anonymous ?
rogerthebodger
Well-Known Member
It could be that coopec has a legal accounting qualification but he like any one can have a personal opinion on any topic.
My boat has a fin keel but it is an integral design with internal structure inside the keel extending up into the hull structure as is the skeg that has a lower rudder bearing support.
Its all about the detail design and the strength of the fin to attachment top plate connection and the connection to the hull/ internal structure,
I personally don't like bolt on keel attachments and its ability to resist all the stresses that can be experienced by the keel attachments.
A spade rudder being a cantilever will need a much bigger diameter rudder shaft than a rudder with bertings to and bottom supported by keel or skeg.
The design of a boat for mainly racing will be a lighter design than a boat designed for Ocean crossing. Not aying a boat designed for racing cannot cross oceans but may not survive an incident that a heaver "Blue water boat" would in my view.
Rappey
Well-Known Member
No one here has suggested expedition Evans problems are due to poor manufacturing.
It has been said "many think that is the case" and would assume those comments originate from youtube comments on the videos.
Youtube has proven to be a great medium for struggling boat yards to achieve more sales to the point where outremer have collaborated with one of the channels.
It could also have a negative effect by appearing unwilling to offer any help or advice and if the majority of 200,000 views think it's poor construction then I can hardly see them getting sued just for their opinion as this would just add more fuel to the fire.
It has been said "many think that is the case" and would assume those comments originate from youtube comments on the videos.
Youtube has proven to be a great medium for struggling boat yards to achieve more sales to the point where outremer have collaborated with one of the channels.
It could also have a negative effect by appearing unwilling to offer any help or advice and if the majority of 200,000 views think it's poor construction then I can hardly see them getting sued just for their opinion as this would just add more fuel to the fire.
eddystone
Well-Known Member
Are these threads, like anchor ones, started by trolls?
pvb
Well-Known Member
Possibly. Another explanation is that they might not be particularly knowledgeable.
Laminar Flow
Well-Known Member
Interesting that a discourse on variance of (keel) opinion has to turn to one of litigation these days.
Having crossed oceans on both short and long keels, I couldn't care less what someone heads out in; chances are they'll arrive at the other side either way.
It is much more important what someone is comfortable with, psychologically speaking. This should not be undereastimated and may not necessarily be someone else's choice.
To be clear, there are both lousy long and short keel boats; there area directionally stable short keelers and there are some long keel varieties that are very poor at it.
A perfectly good argument can be made for low aspect fins and long keels, especially if you are a cruiser where out and out speed is not an issue. If you want to go really fast, go super light and short. For cruising, i.e. living on a boat for extended periods of time while moving about: everything in moderation.
Most blue water boats never see blue water and a US company that not only builds, but also docks and stores their product for its customers, figures that most boats are moved three days a year on average. (kinda reduces your statistical chances of getting into trouble in the first place, regardless of what shape your bottom is)
Most sailors will never experience survival conditions. I sure as hell don't want to (not again, anyway) and my wife definitely doesn't either.
If you do any kind of serious cruising, you will experience a grounding every now and then.
Development of windward ability in modern boats is due to racing and does not stem from some insurance company's preoccupation with lee shores.
Most of these discussions are conducted from the comfort of a sloop rigged couch.
My current boat has a long keel and a separate, but not freestanding rudder. I would not consider her an offshore boat in her current configuration.
Having crossed oceans on both short and long keels, I couldn't care less what someone heads out in; chances are they'll arrive at the other side either way.
It is much more important what someone is comfortable with, psychologically speaking. This should not be undereastimated and may not necessarily be someone else's choice.
To be clear, there are both lousy long and short keel boats; there area directionally stable short keelers and there are some long keel varieties that are very poor at it.
A perfectly good argument can be made for low aspect fins and long keels, especially if you are a cruiser where out and out speed is not an issue. If you want to go really fast, go super light and short. For cruising, i.e. living on a boat for extended periods of time while moving about: everything in moderation.
Most blue water boats never see blue water and a US company that not only builds, but also docks and stores their product for its customers, figures that most boats are moved three days a year on average. (kinda reduces your statistical chances of getting into trouble in the first place, regardless of what shape your bottom is)
Most sailors will never experience survival conditions. I sure as hell don't want to (not again, anyway) and my wife definitely doesn't either.
If you do any kind of serious cruising, you will experience a grounding every now and then.
Development of windward ability in modern boats is due to racing and does not stem from some insurance company's preoccupation with lee shores.
Most of these discussions are conducted from the comfort of a sloop rigged couch.
My current boat has a long keel and a separate, but not freestanding rudder. I would not consider her an offshore boat in her current configuration.
coopec
N/A
I take it you are calling me a liar?
I am astonished there are people like you: (talk about Dunning Kruger syndrome!)
Why do I bother arguing with someone like you?Why don't you go and ask Mummy for your coloring-in book?
Perth
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Hallberg-Rassy
Well-Known Member
You asked about my motivations, I'd just like to keep topics on topic and noise free. I'd bad enough dealing with armchair marine architects, than having to deal with unqualified armchair lawyers on top.
However, I note the followng from 2014, so defending Bendy Toys from "potentially libellous" statements, and policing topics, seems to be a thing of yours.
Back to blue water or keel talk, please.
ISAF formed a Keel Structure Working Party to look into the frequent incidences of keel failure, where did they get to.
And did the Kraken builder do any destructive testing on their solution, or is it waiting to be tested in real life?
coopec
N/A
Interesting?
When a boat loses a keel at sea the first reaction is often to blame the keel bolts, but the evidence does not support this; and other failures are actually more common. In 2008, the International Sailing Federation (ISAF) set up a working party on keel losses, and they found 72 cases since 1984 of boats losing their keels. There were defined causes in 44.5% of cases, but only three were attributed to keel bolt failure. Other causes included welded fin failures (11), grounding collision (8), internal structure (8) and canting keel system (2).
keel failure – XS Sailing
Skylark
Well-Known Member
Wow, I have a stalker?
Shows that I’m consistent. That thread was, in my opinion, in extremely bad taste. People had lost their lives at sea. The upturned hull had been found and photographed but not recovered.
Arm chair experts on here concluded that it was bad design and/or a manufacturing defect based upon no facts, just their prejudice.
Very ghoulish and potentially distressing for the families involved.
You may also have discovered that the thread was shut-down “for legal reasons” pending court proceedings.
So, as you like to keep on-topic, what’s your view of an accident damaged boat being described as “everyone seems to think that it’s poor workmanship by Beneteau”?
I find it churlish.
With regard to your motives, I find it quite disconcerting that you are prepared to search my posting record as far back as 6 years. Seems a bit weird. As such, I’ll now steer clear of this troll.
TernVI
Well-Known Member
I would not expect keel bolts to often fail in AWBs.
A bolt strong enough is easy to buy and not expensive.
Keel bolts are more of an issue on old wooden boats where they corrode.
72 failures between 1984 and 2008. Mostly extreme race boats with such things as welded fin structures and canting keels.
So the number of failures in AWBs is in fact tiny.
Not to say we don't need to be careful.
If I were buying another boat, I'd be considering:
How will this structure behave if the yacht is grounded at speed?
How will a surveyor be able to determine any damage?
If it's repaired, how can we be sure it's good enough?
For small manufacturers or extreme designs, you'd need to consider the design and build Quality Assurance.
I've seen and heard of enough of the realities of small boatbuilding operations to be a little sceptical.
Your mass produced boats are probably much better, although where the actual moulding is done in cheap countries by people who know little about yachts there may be doubts.
Equally I'd have reservations about many less mainstream boats. How do you know how good the welding is on a steel boat? How do you know how good the hidden structure is? how far has construction departed from the design work? How rigorous was the design work?
A bolt strong enough is easy to buy and not expensive.
Keel bolts are more of an issue on old wooden boats where they corrode.
72 failures between 1984 and 2008. Mostly extreme race boats with such things as welded fin structures and canting keels.
So the number of failures in AWBs is in fact tiny.
Not to say we don't need to be careful.
If I were buying another boat, I'd be considering:
How will this structure behave if the yacht is grounded at speed?
How will a surveyor be able to determine any damage?
If it's repaired, how can we be sure it's good enough?
For small manufacturers or extreme designs, you'd need to consider the design and build Quality Assurance.
I've seen and heard of enough of the realities of small boatbuilding operations to be a little sceptical.
Your mass produced boats are probably much better, although where the actual moulding is done in cheap countries by people who know little about yachts there may be doubts.
Equally I'd have reservations about many less mainstream boats. How do you know how good the welding is on a steel boat? How do you know how good the hidden structure is? how far has construction departed from the design work? How rigorous was the design work?
pvb
Well-Known Member
I'd have the same reservations, especially about home-made steel or fibreglass boats.
pvb
Well-Known Member
Why don't you go and ask Mummy for your coloring-in book?
She died recently.
rogerthebodger
Well-Known Member
Are you saying than non mass produced boats or homemade steel or fibreglass boat are no of a quality that makes then not fit for purpose, even when they are designed by a reconisied naval architect. My steel boat hull was designed by Angelo Lavranos and built a steel fabricator personally known to Angelo.
It is easy to determine how good the welding is on a steel boat. Ultrasonic testing was used where necessary for 50 years or more. Easier that determining the internal structure of GRP or Ferrocement boats.
Any one who builds and sails their own boat will know where everything is and more importantly how to fix what goes wrong at sea or in a remote location.
I can weld any part of the structure in any remote location by using my onboard welder and generator. I can even bolt on doubler plates until a proper repair and be made.
I also know what happened to all the GRP boats whenDurban marina broke up 3 years ago and what damage was done to my boat in the same event.
One question I have is how is a GRP boat with a bolt in fin keel supported when dry docked for antifouling and can you use a scrubbing post or will that over strain the internal keel support structure.
pvb
Well-Known Member
In the UK, it's common practice to put a boat in a steel cradle for antifouling, etc. The boat rests on its keel and adjustable props support the hull to stop the boat falling over. It works fine and no damage is caused. Some people use scrubbing posts, and again no damage is caused.
Remember that most new boats are transported by road on low-loaders, again resting on their keel. The road journey naturally causes much more vibration than merely sitting in a cradle in the marina, but no damage is caused. My own boat was brought 750 miles by road from the factory.