Keel/Rudder design

[coopec]

There’s nothing bitter nor malice in my comments.
I’ve expressed no opinion and have merely pointed at that your first assertion is plainly wrong and that your second is also plainly wrong and is possibly libellous.

I see also that you’ve now resorted to patronising sarcasm. Do yourself a favour and give it a rest.

I've said nothing libelous. Among other branches of law I have taught, libel, defamation, misrepresentation in
the classroom ........

So when people describe the keel on my yacht as "primitive unbalanced rudder", "barn door rudder" I'm not allowed to extol its' virtues?

 

[coopec]

Sometimes they just need to break free of their shackles

Quite frankly I'll think twice before starting a new thread.

But I keep reminding myself that you guys are still in lock down (?) so I should be understanding.

 

[dunedin]

I am surprised at the vitriolic, bigoted, sarcastic, narrow minded and just plain rude comments of people commenting above. Each to his own I say. I love yachts. I love ALL yachts (especially ones without fin keels and balanced rudders)

Sorry mate, but I think that is either extreme forgetfulness or hypocrisy from somebody who started this whole thread with an initial post .....

i believe the modern day production yachts are good for Coastal Cruising, sitting in a marina and club racing but definitely not for Blue Water Cruising.

That certainly does qualify for most of the adjectives you use above, narrow-minded being just one.
Plus it is simply untrue. I have no idea what blue water experience you have, but a heck of a lot of people on this forum have successfully sailed blue water with modern production cruisers, and a look in most ports suggests they are hardly a minority.
So by starting a whole thread with a narrow minded criticism of boats different from your own (as yet untested) boat you can’t complain if others have a wid set of views

 

[coopec]

I have no idea what blue water experience you have, but a heck of a lot of people on this forum have successfully sailed blue water with modern production cruisers, and a look in most ports suggests they are hardly a minority.

This is my last comment.

Sure, a lot of people have successfully sailed blue water with modern production cruiser
AND a lot didn't make it.

Most knowledgeable people would accept there are problems with modern day fin keeled yachts. When someone makes derogatory comments about full keel/unbalanced rudder yachts I come out with guns blazing ?

Have a good day!!

 

[pvb]

Don't feed the troll

Seems you were right!

 

[RJJ]

We should all be aware, knowledgeable about, alert to, and responsible for the condition of our yachts. If we're going offshore or "long offshore" the care threshold is greater, because the weather and rescue scenarios are much more challenging. Care should be taken in event of groundings, in all boats, and taking due consideration of whatever construction technique was used. Keel joints should also be inspected in slings at each haulout. Obviously.

Beyond that, some comments on this thread are completely unwarranted and harmful. Hard groundings aside, and empirically speaking, the risk of severe keel failure on moderate AWBs is miniscule, given the number of hulls afloat and miles covered, including in severe weather. It certainly does not justify generalised comments about "poor workmanship" or "unsuitability for blue-water cruising". My AWB has crossed the Atlantic four times without incident, and I'm confident about us doing it again in 2021; she's been professionally surveyed after a moderate grounding, and no harm found.

It's not as though longer-keeled boats have never been involved in accidents. I could launch into a diatribe about boat-handling characteristics, how hard some boats are to control downwind in a seaway and how this means they are permanently at risk of being dismasted. Then there's also the age of some longer-keeled boats, where the condition of the seacocks and internal plumbing must mean they all are at permanent risk of disaster. But that would be nonsense.

We're all doing the same thing in slightly different ways and it's much safer than it used to be. Adlard Coles "Heavy Weather Sailing" describes how hairy it used to be, when a weather forecast was only good for 12 hours, hardly anyone wore a lifejacket of any kind, comms were basically non-existent, and your hull might simply get stove-in by a gnarly wave. You can also read the reports on Platino and Nirvana Now and the one where an elderly couple were rescued having been swamped off California; well-found, heavily engineered vessels that became tragedies.

I can deal with fact and evidence, which supports the advice to get surveys, regularly check the joint inside and out, torque-up the keel bolts. But saying "all AWBs are unsuitable for long voyages because Cheeky Rafiki" is daft, malicious, and misleading to the next people following in our track.

 

[RJJ]

This is my last comment.

Sure, a lot of people have successfully sailed blue water with modern production cruiser
AND a lot didn't make it.

Most knowledgeable people would accept there are problems with modern day fin keeled yachts. When someone makes derogatory comments about full keel/unbalanced rudder yachts I come out with guns blazing ?

Have a good day!!

View attachment 103127View attachment 103128View attachment 103129View attachment 103130View attachment 103131View attachment 103132

9 photos. Of which: 2 are of Polina Star where a construction error was noted above. 2 (perhaps 3) are of Cheeky Rafiki where my understanding is precautions were not correctly followed following a hard grounding,. 1 is Hooligan V which was very much a race-boat, with a keel design that was already extreme relative to any of the BenJenBav types and which had undergone dubious modifications. None of those examples support your contention that moderate fin-keel AWBs, properly designed, inspected and maintained, should not go "long offshore".

Leaves four that I can't identify. Again, given how many of these boats are around, and without knowing anything about the ownership and use of those particular boats, this doesn't massively support your case.

I am glad that was your last comment.

 

[Rappey]

Wow. All because the poster expressed his opinion.
CQR or rocna
Wheel or tiller
Long or fin keel
Heavy or light displacement
Wind or solar
Centre or rear cockpit
Fixed or folding prop
Encapsulated or bolt on keel
These debates go on and on. Why do they have to end up so aggressive though ?
Without differences of opinion the forums could be pretty dull.

 

[Rappey]

Keel/rudder design.
We've not really discussed how many vessels have been lost due to rudder failure !
Is one type more prone to failure than another? Is it due to mechanical failure of the rudder and mounting or the system employed to move the rudder ?

 

[Skylark]

I've said nothing libelous. Among other branches of law I have taught, libel, defamation, misrepresentation in
the classroom ........

With reference to to:-

A young couple are trying to repair (I think) a Beneteau yacht that lost its' keel and everyone seems to think that was poor workmanship by Beneteau.

Given that this is plainly wrong and within the context of your other comments, it seems defamatory, especially that you've been given ample opportunity to retract it. That said, unlike you, I claim no legal qualification.

So here's a direct question, why don't you retract the statement?

 

[dankilb]

Sure, a lot of people have successfully sailed blue water with modern production cruiser
AND a lot didn't make it.

Statements like these fall down on the numbers/%s. As these boats were produced in the 10s of thousands, and the documented failures are perhaps in the 10s, it becomes problematic to suggest 'a lot' vs 'a lot'.

All this strikes me as a bit analogous to someone saying their home built/custom car is safer than, say, a Ford Fiesta because it has stronger control arms (or some such). Yes, the suspension on my 1990s JDM import is beefier than the misses' Fiesta. It doesn't mean that all Fiesta drivers are at risk of suspension failure or that you'd be ill-advised to take one on the motorway.

Production boats are built to a cost/spec that doesn't make certain components indestructible, but the fact that many thousands are sailing around perfectly safely is really where we can draw meaningful conclusions. It doesn't make me any less smug that my own production boat is somewhat 'beefier' than some newer varieties (skeg hung rudder, over-specced keel bolts, well-designed chain plates, no structural grid, etc.), but neither does it make those boats less safe.

 

[TernVI]

Another whole can of worms is the safety implications of a boat that doesn't go upwind very well when things get a big tough.
Yachts have evolved with fin keels for a reason.

 

[NormanS]

Another whole can of worms is the safety implications of a boat that doesn't go upwind very well when things get a big tough.
Yachts have evolved with fin keels for a reason.

Well yes, cheapness mainly. ?

 

[Hallberg-Rassy]

Given that this is plainly wrong and within the context of your other comments, it seems defamatory, especially that you've been given ample opportunity to retract it. So here's a direct question, why don't you retract the statement?

Strictly speaking, reporting a commonly held view isn't libellous, it's fair comment. What he's saying is that "many people believe", not that it actually is.

Do you work for Bendy Toys? If not, why should he do anything just because you want to assert your dominance over him?

There was a 2009 High Court ruling on bulletin board cases that ruled defamation on internet bulletin boards is akin to slander, like pub talk, rather than libel.

In my opinion, Bendy Toys' customer service/tech support in the above issue is appalling.

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

Quite frankly I'll think twice before starting a new thread.

But I keep reminding myself that you guys are still in lock down (?) so I should be understanding.

Don't lose heart, some of us actually agree with you but are too frightened to say so.

 

[Hallberg-Rassy]

I think what irks me a little about the Kraken is how the term "blue water" has been co-opted to mean something else, in this case, more "blue chip".

I'd call the kind of boats being referred to more as "blue chip boats" and, yes, I think the OP has a point that a) the current, race inspired trend for bolt on narrow keels is partly done as a cost cutting effort in an already far too expensive floating luxury apartment, and b) when they do fail, they fail catastrophically.

On the other hand, I don't think it's a concern for the people buying them now as either they're not going to live long enough for them to reach their GRP/keel sealant's half-life, nor sail far enough. Nor likely in very threatening waters. The blue they are after is atoll-azure not scary blue-green. Could pretty much any boat over 18' be sailed across the deepest ocean? Yes, if you to do so in nice weather, so what does it mean?

So what's the Kraken owner/designer selling? I noticed the boats are or were built in China. I'd be interested to know how he built his keel, ie was it "outside-out" (around the keel), and not inside a mould. Or was it inside two female halves, and then joined together? I am presuming it's also reinforced with a steel flange on the inside too?

£800,000, plus may be another £100,000 in extras, plus the same for a year on the water? I think he's selling a FUD factor to high value clients who might just sail for two or three weeks a year, or at least be on the boat for two or three weeks a year, and have it sailed to wherever they want to be seen hanging out ... but feel valuable enough in themselves to warrant spending a premium.

How many people are going to spend £1m before they even go anywhere? I think, as with people who buy a Bugatti, he's selling an idea of performance, to people who can afford it but rarely to never able to exercise it.

Impressive however, the CEO started off ditch crawling off Canvey. How did he make his money?

* FWIW, the only person I know to have lost their rudder, did so in a Contessa 32 off Cape Wrath, which was a big surprise to everyone involved as it's a well protected, long keel/protected skeg design. Forget how it happened.

 

[RJJ]

Why do they have to end up so aggressive though ?

I hope I have been reasoned and not aggressive, however the fact is we are all heavily invested in assets that we can afford to varying degrees, and which we aspire one day to sell. I don't want to struggle selling my boat, which is set up and equipped for ocean crossings, because of ill-informed rubbish.

Boats cost money, boats have strengths and weaknesses, accidents can happen if you are not diligent in all aspects of how you manage, maintain and operate the boat. That's all we need to agree on. If I see blanket statements on a public forum, where people come for advice, to the effect that my boat isn't good enough for the purpose I chose her for, then I will react accordingly.

 

[Skylark]

Strictly speaking, reporting a commonly held view isn't libellous, it's fair comment. What he's saying is that "many people believe", not that it actually is.

Do you work for Bendy Toys? if not, why should he do anything just because you want to assert your dominance over him?

Why do you feel the need to answer on his behalf?

Why does it matter to you who I work for?

Why do you feel that I'm trying to assert my dominance over him?

I've expressed no view within this thread regarding yacht design features, simply because I'm not qualified to do so. I'm not an armchair expert. What's plain to see is that very many and I'd go so far as to say the majority based upon my personal experience, of blue water cruisers, however you may chose to define it, enjoy their time afloat in a modern design. There's room for all on the water and I wish everyone fair winds.

The OP comment that "A young couple are trying to repair (I think) a Beneteau yacht that lost its' keel and everyone seems to think that was poor workmanship by Beneteau." is clearly wrong and he's offered no evidence in support of "everyone seems to think.........."

I think it a churlish comment and to my moral compass, a real man would withdraw it.

Feel free to continue to defend what I judge to be the indefensible. You're welcome to your opinion and I, of course, respect it, just don't agree with it.

 

[doug748]

"The OP comment that "A young couple are trying to repair (I think) a Beneteau yacht that lost its' keel and everyone seems to think that was poor workmanship by Beneteau." is clearly wrong and he's offered no evidence in support of "everyone seems to think.........."

I think it a churlish comment and to my moral compass, a real man would withdraw it." Quote



Seems to me the OP made a justifiable comment here.. in terms of the video series, and the general tenor of the comments both on the attitude of Beneteau and the construction of that particular boat.

However he is in the dock for firing off the following in his opening post:

"I believe the modern day production yachts are good for Coastal Cruising, sitting in a marina and club racing but definitely not for Blue Water Cruising. "

He should carry the can for that. A more balanced view might be that: A number of quite large modern yachts are not best suited suited to long distance sailing in open waters

There are certainly prima donnas on these pages who love to take offence almost as much as they love to dish it out. So I can't be totally straight faced when I read such slightly lop sided views. These people know who they are, we know they are they are.


.

 

[Hallberg-Rassy]

I've expressed no view within this thread regarding yacht design features, simply because I'm not qualified to do so.

What are your legal qualifications?