Kedge anchor choice

[KellysEye]

>we never picked up a ground chain and have never heard of anybody who has
>> Don't worry; you will.

We've anchored over 500 times and if we weren't sure that the bottom was mud or sand we buoyed the anchor. Thus if it jammed we could pull it forwards and up. It only happened twice when we got the anchor caught under a rock. Which is much more likely to happen than being caught by chain.

 

[Tranona]

Which is much more likely to happen than being caught by chain.

That really depends on where you are anchoring. If you anchor in locations where there are rocks on the seabed, you run the risk of getting caught on a rock. On the other hand as patiently explained by others here if you anchor in harbours where there are ground chains (very common in many UK harbours and small Greek harbours) you risk fouling on the chains.

So your statement is nonsense in the absolute way it is expressed.

 

[Chris_Robb]

>we never picked up a ground chain and have never heard of anybody who has
>> Don't worry; you will.

We've anchored over 500 times and if we weren't sure that the bottom was mud or sand we buoyed the anchor. Thus if it jammed we could pull it forwards and up. It only happened twice when we got the anchor caught under a rock. Which is much more likely to happen than being caught by chain.

In Greek harbours, ground chains known and unknown are a real problem.

In small harbours you may need to go bows too because of limited depths. As the harbour is small you will need to put the anchor near to the local boats on the other side who are moored to ground chains. You have to try to estimate where the ground chain is by the angle of their lazy line and estimate the depth. In Navpactos I got the depth wrong thinking that the local boats would be in 2 meters or so, but no the depth was 4 to 5 meters, so the chain was further out. Bingo!

In others such as Mykonos there are meant to be lazy lines, attached to a massive ground chain. Most of the lazy lines are cut and lying on the bottom, so you have to anchor - and its normally very windy. So yachts go astern a high speed dragging their anchors after them - a sure way to get them caught - in 10 meters of water. Fee for the diver was €150, and he did 5 in one day whilst I was there!

Careful anchoring, ie not letting it skid across the bottom is the only way here. Interestingly all the ones recovered were CQR............ I wonder why

 

[vyv_cox]

Yes, we caught one in Mykonos, fortunately freed by the young guys on the adjacent boat who were freeing theirs by mask and snorkel. Also caught one at Limeni on the west coast of Peleponnisos but only the tip of our anchor caught the chain and it freed OK. Caught another at Patitiri in the Sporades, fishing boat moored to a very heavy chain but we were just able to lift it enough with our windlass to get the hook under it. We were warned about another at Skiathos, it is parallel to the quay about 25 metres out but we anchored far further out than that.

 

[Neeves]

It has now become clear that 'ground chains' are a real problem for some of you - and though the problem exists its not a big issue in Australia. You are also using your 'kedge' for different reasons (or that is how it seems from the posts) to Australia. From the posts you appear to have the problem of ground chains in congested harbours where you are anchoring to allow you to tie bow to a pier (and thus cannot use your primary anchor). Someone will disagree but largely we would steer clear of some harbours - as they are commecial and lack the romance of a 14th century Greek port and many of the other harbours (having lost their historic commercial focus) have been converted to swish marinas. I cannot think of a harbour in Oz where we would anchor off and tie to the pier (all at 90 degrees), we might raft up to a fishing boat, but that's about it.

Our use of a kedge would be to winch oursleves out of an embarassing situation (if we cannot wait for the tide) or to better secure ourselves against some nasty weather - in such cases ground chains simply do not exist as we are doing the former, hopefully out of sight of anyone, and the latter where people would simply not have left a chain on the bottom.

Ones choice of a Fortress, if that's the choice, would thus not be negated by the fear of a ground chain - basically ground chains do not come into the equation. Consequently we can choose our kedges for their 'anchoring characteristics' rather than their ability to snarl a ground chain.

A question does remain - if ground chains are such a major and well known issue why do you not buoy the anchor and use anchors with easier release should they get caught (like a Supreme or SARCA with their slot, a Spade, or, yes, Bugel - and the latter 2 with a trip line and buoy).

Jonathan

 

[john_morris_uk]

It has now become clear that 'ground chains' are a real problem for some of you - and though the problem exists its not a big issue in Australia. You are also using your 'kedge' for different reasons (or that is how it seems from the posts) to Australia. From the posts you appear to have the problem of ground chains in congested harbours where you are anchoring to allow you to tie bow to a pier (and thus cannot use your primary anchor). Someone will disagree but largely we would steer clear of some harbours - as they are commecial and lack the romance of a 14th century Greek port and many of the other harbours (having lost their historic commercial focus) have been converted to swish marinas. I cannot think of a harbour in Oz where we would anchor off and tie to the pier (all at 90 degrees), we might raft up to a fishing boat, but that's about it.

Our use of a kedge would be to winch oursleves out of an embarassing situation (if we cannot wait for the tide) or to better secure ourselves against some nasty weather - in such cases ground chains simply do not exist as we are doing the former, hopefully out of sight of anyone, and the latter where people would simply not have left a chain on the bottom.

Ones choice of a Fortress, if that's the choice, would thus not be negated by the fear of a ground chain - basically ground chains do not come into the equation. Consequently we can choose our kedges for their 'anchoring characteristics' rather than their ability to snarl a ground chain.

A question does remain - if ground chains are such a major and well known issue why do you not buoy the anchor and use anchors with easier release should they get caught (like a Supreme or SARCA with their slot, a Spade, or, yes, Bugel - and the latter 2 with a trip line and buoy).

Jonathan

I think the way you describe the use of a kedge is pretty similar to the way many people use kedge anchors in Europe. The thread has got hijacked a bit by those who use them for Med' mooring, and although there are a lot of yachts in the Med' and a lot of forumites who are in the Med' there are plenty of boats that never Med moor and therefore don't have the issues with picking up chains that seems to have grabbed the thread.

We have a Fortress as a kedge anchor, and I don't give much thought to the 'pick up chains' issue as we don't use it in harbours.

In the last few years I have only managed to pick up a cable/chain once, and that was with the bower, and the windlass got it close enough to the surface to get a line under it to allow us to drop the anchor clear. It took less than five minutes to sort out.

 

[Neeves]

Hi John,

Its nice to get some balance.

Its also interesting - if you read a lot of 'similar' threads the Supreme, SARCA and (now) Boss get a lot of stick for their self tripping slots. An application arises, ground chains (which for the victims is self evident and well recorded) where the self tripping slot should reign supreme (with apologies to Manson) and no-one mentions it.

An opportunity here for someone with a desire for a career in anchor marketing in the Med?

Jonathan

 

[john_morris_uk]

Hi John,

Its nice to get some balance.

Its also interesting - if you read a lot of 'similar' threads the Supreme, SARCA and (now) Boss get a lot of stick for their self tripping slots. An application arises, ground chains (which for the victims is self evident and well recorded) where the self tripping slot should reign supreme (with apologies to Manson) and no-one mentions it.

An opportunity here for someone with a desire for a career in anchor marketing in the Med?

Jonathan

Perhaps any attempts at marketing anchors in the way you describe have been bought out by the Med' diving cartels?

Only joking (in case the Med divers have cousins near Naples etc.)

 

[Chris_Robb]

A question does remain - if ground chains are such a major and well known issue why do you not buoy the anchor and use anchors with easier release should they get caught (like a Supreme or SARCA with their slot, a Spade, or, yes, Bugel - and the latter 2 with a trip line and buoy).

Jonathan

Anchor buoys laid in profusion off the quays where boats are reversing in would result in another problem - anchor buoy lines round the props!

 

[Neeves]

Anchor buoys laid in profusion off the quays where boats are reversing in would result in another problem - anchor buoy lines round the props!

So, we've answered one question, what's the answer to the other?

The thread has had a fair share of people 'complaining' about 'ground chains'. There is a simple solution, an anchor with a tripping slot, they've been around for years, actually designed and promoted for this situation. You do not need a big anchor (you are in the shelter of a harbour - and probably attached to the quay). You deploy from the stern, so weight is not really an issue. All you need is enough holding capacity for a small anchor and if you ask then antipodeans will send you enough information on holding capacity to ensure you have a good night's sleep (even before you purchase).

I wonder: If you have a long enough length (tide + draft) of large enough diameter hosepipe at the top of the buoy rope (and the buoy is big enough to support the weight) its too inflexible to get caught on most props - but will still pack in a locker.

All very odd

Jonathan

 

[Chris_Robb]

So, we've answered one question, what's the answer to the other?

The thread has had a fair share of people 'complaining' about 'ground chains'. There is a simple solution, an anchor with a tripping slot, they've been around for years, actually designed and promoted for this situation. You do not need a big anchor (you are in the shelter of a harbour - and probably attached to the quay). You deploy from the stern, so weight is not really an issue. All you need is enough holding capacity for a small anchor and if you ask then antipodeans will send you enough information on holding capacity to ensure you have a good night's sleep (even before you purchase).

I wonder: If you have a long enough length (tide + draft) of large enough diameter hosepipe at the top of the buoy rope (and the buoy is big enough to support the weight) its too inflexible to get caught on most props - but will still pack in a locker.

All very odd

Jonathan

Jonathan, I have a Manson Supreme. I don't use the rock slot as undoing the shackle and mousing is a pain in the proverbial. But I agree, it would be ideal in this situation where the pull is only ever one way and there is a risk of ground chain. But I would not dream of swinging to an anchor in this way.

 

[Roberto]

chain

why not turn the big chain on the bottom problem into an advantage using one of these grapnels (just took the first picture I found) ?
Not the folding ones, but those similar to the picture: they are manufactured into various sizes and some used by fishermen to help in hoisting nets (which may weigh several tons) so as a disposable anchor in port they should be plenty enough

thread a rope as a doubled rode, when ready to leave slip the rope, say goodbye to the 10 euro grapnel and sail away

btw I need one to recover all the things my daughters drop to the bottom when in port

 

[lenseman]

The ring of chain trick won't work if a Danforth-type has got the ground chain firmly lodged between the flukes and the shank, because the CG of the anchor - plus - ground -chain will always be forward of the point that the ring of chain can reach.

Don't ask me how I know that - but it should be obvious anyway.

This is very true but on a Kedge you can always us a tripping line and small fender as a float/marker?

 

[lenseman]

Anchor buoys laid in profusion off the quays where boats are reversing in would result in another problem - anchor buoy lines round the props!

In situations like that, a tripping line can be tie-wrapped onto the anchor chain and rode to keep it below the water line back to either the bow or stern. If you haven't got tie-wraps, then whipping twine or mousing line will be a very good substitute and will serve admirably.

 

[Chris_Robb]

In situations like that, a tripping line can be tie-wrapped onto the anchor chain and rode to keep it below the water line back to either the bow or stern. If you haven't got tie-wraps, then whipping twine or mousing line will be a very good substitute and will serve admirably.

Problem is people don't do that!

 

[lenseman]

Problem is people don't do that!

because they are Numpties and not proper sailors.

 

[dharl]

Danton's Seamanship - the merchant service textbook, goes further and explains how to boat off the bower anchor of a stranded merchant ship suspended under hatch beams lashed over the gunwales of two lifeboats.

Most people taking their deck officers exams read this and think "impractical - far too difficult" but I knew a man who actually did it.

He was Mate of a British liner which went aground in Manila Bay, in full view of the city's waterfront, in the Sixties. The Master had had altogether too much of a run ashore... Jim, who was an East Coast Scot, took charge of the situation and actually did boat off the port bower under the two lifeboats, using hatch beams. The Master knew his career was at and end so he retired to his cabin with a bottle - his only contribution being to insist on using the insurance wire, whereas Jim, who was sober, had already worked out that given the maximum load that the windlasses could exert he could have used cargo runners.. be that as it may, the ship was duly hauled off and the anchor returned to the hawsepipe - I worked for this company myself and we were very used to making fast to typhoon buoys in Hong Kong harbour, so hanging anchors off was routine for us all.

No wrecks and nobody drownded but much loss of corporate "face", amended by Jim's textbook demonstration...he was Fleet Manager twenty years later.

Excellent seamanship!

When I was taking my Chief Mates a few years ago I was asked by exaiminer on how to kedge off using a bower anchor whilst on general cargoi ship. The answear was fairly simular to above. Glad I only had to talk about it and never do it for real!

 

[KellysEye]

> ground chains (very common in many UK harbours and small Greek harbours) you risk fouling on the chains.

Must admit I've never anchored in UK harbours we bought the boat and sailed in the UK around the east coast then when we were leaving the UK we went from Burnham on Crouch to Falmouth. On the way back it was Spain to Lyminginton. However we chartered about 30 times in Greece, for two weeks each, and dropped a kedge anchor around 400 times (which makes my earlier estimate way too low).

We certainly had anchor chains crossed over us when boats came in later than us but never picked up a chain. The areas we sailed were Ionian, Athens/Saronic, Sporades, Dodecanese, Pelopponese and around the Mount Athos Peninsulars. The water is clear and we never saw any chains. Obviously others have.

 

[Neeves]

Jonathan, I have a Manson Supreme. I don't use the rock slot as undoing the shackle and mousing is a pain in the proverbial. But I agree, it would be ideal in this situation where the pull is only ever one way and there is a risk of ground chain. But I would not dream of swinging to an anchor in this way.

Chris,

I did some tests on a slotted anchor and they self trip, Supreme/SARCA at about 120 degrees whereas a 'normal' anchor might actually stay set (depends on how well) even in a 180 degree tide/wind change. If you load it sufficiently a normal anchor would start to sommersault at about 160 degrees (prior it might swivel in the seabed). So I'm with you - after all the trouble you might take to set it to then allow it to so easily self trip seems contradictory. Both Manson and Anchor Right have overcome the issue (with the Boss and SARCA) by incorporating a lock nut in the slot. If you feel you have need of the tripping slot, ground chain or whatever, you simply loosen the lock nut and slide it down to the crown, so no need to change shackles etc. The Supreme has that dedicated shackle hole - bit of a problem. You could move your shackle, permanently, and mouse it into the slot and simply use a Nyloc nut and bolt. I do not know about the Boss, not yet had time to look at one in detail but the SARCA, slot, is specifically designed to ensure that the CofG is such that it 'lifts' backwards, freeing it from rock (or a ground chain). The idea, of all of these, is you do not actually lift the anchor but slide it out in the reverse to how it was set - so less danger of over straining the windlass, or your back. And on the Supreme and SARCA, both of which I have tried it on, it all works.

Disadvantages, both SARCA and Supreme are roll barred, do not fit every bow roller. Between them you have the choice of concave or convex and the Supreme has an indestructible shank (at risk of a tirade of replies - I've never heard of a shank bending). Both are gal, so a bit heavy when full sized if you were using them as a 'conventional' kedge and wanted to row them out (so keep the Fortress or alloy Spade for that).

Jonathan