JW's Upgrades for 2016 - Tender

[Hurricane]

is that still Renee, ?
I'm not pleased to say that I had very bad experience with her when I bought my 430 >2year ago
very slow reaction or answers to my mails,
many faulty promisses about delivery, and a long delay.
eventually,
from the moment they had the rib at Nautical ventures, and they send me pics,
all went quick and smooth

Yep - that seems to be my experience as well.
I ordered a "stock" boat which she said could be ready in a couple of weeks "tops" - those were her words.
That was in September.
In their defence though, they are fitting the Marine Deck Teak, a Bimini and the 70HP Yam so there is some work to do.
There are a few other things that they have to do - fill a void where the 110v battery charger goes, fit the extra tow eyes, windscreen/console rail and smart tabs.
I've also ordered a lifting bridle - I usually make my own but I may need it when I pick the boat up in Portbury.

 

[jfm]

Just curious, did you have a chance to try both, or to get reliable feedbacks from someone who did? Mind, I'm sure it can only be better, but my doubt is how much, in practice?
In fact, my last comment above was just based on a pretty impressive seatrial of the 430 this summer, together with a pinch of salt in comparing its specs with those of the 400.
And I still struggle to understand why the 430 should be significantly better.
Yep, of course the 400 is smaller, but we're talking of 30cm length and 10cm width difference. With exactly the same layout, equipment, tubes size and chambers.
I would understand if you'd have said that the 460 is better than the 430, 'cause the former is much wider (30cm), has 5 air chambers (vs. 3 on the 400/430), larger tubes diameter, larger and taller bench, and even a water tank. But the 400 and the 400, on paper, look much more similar.
Besides, I'm sure you're right in saying that the 430 looks great on 24m boats, but I suspect the opposite will be true for JW.
Not that I'd be much concerned about the look, in Hurricane's boots - and I don't think he is, either.
But there are also obvious practical advantages in not stretching the tender size too much OTT vs. the mother ship...
Anyway, all academic if the 430 is already on its way - all the best to Hurricane for the final arrangements and installation! :encouragement:

I wouldn't argue with you and "significantly" is a pinch of salt thing/in eye of the beholder. I have driven both because I have friends with the 400; as you know test drives are a bit subjective of course. However it feels to me like the 430 is bigger, in a small way, in every dimension, and so feels heavier and bigger. The transom doesn't curve down at the ends as it does on 400 (click the link above to see what I mean). The deep vee, while same angle perhaps, is a bit bigger. There comes a size of wave where you find things switch from nice cruise to a bit lumpy and if you are having fun on your boat on a day when that is true for 400 not 430 you will want the 430. When you stroll along a quay like mine that has perhaps a dozen 400s on swim platform or flybridge and then you come to the 430, it does feel bigger, by more than a trivial amount. I'm not trying to be precise, but its a difference worth having. These are not by any measure big boats, but for a tender the 430 to me sort of just edges into the "big small" boat category, whereas 400 is definitely a "small boat" and your guests will get wet bums as you take them to dinner ashore

On aesthetics, yep oftentimes a 400 looks better than 430 even on 24m let alone a 21/22mm. I would say I only just get away with 430 on 5.7m beam but that is questionable and some people would say it's too big, looks-wise. For sure, Williams 380 would be sleeker! On princess 67, the 430 will probably look significantly too big and 400 would look better. The pic in link above with the 400 is a new Princess 82. But Hurricane doesn't mind that as you say, because he is looking for a long-legged boat and there I reckon the 430 scores higher than 400 by some margin, enough to make Hurricane's project worthwhile imho so I'm :encouragement: on his project

I couldn't find in a quick search a picture of 400 and 430 together. Here are some random pics of 430 to reflect on size (mine and Myag's)...

 

[MapisM]

Geez, I can't recall to have ever seen a better o/b cover. That sewing machine must be something...!
...though the colour doesn't seem to match ('scuse the pun!) the tender cover.
Or is it the tender cover that doesn't match the gelcoat?

As an aside, am I right in remembering to have already seen in some of your pics that Azzurro-like boat, in the background of AG moored alongside?

 

[jfm]

haha - the o/b cover is indeed perfect fit, made by an Aus company who made my grey Yamaha hood cover and sold me both as package deal. Alas not same material as the white sunbrella on the main tender cover, but ok for winter.

We discussed the Azzurro-esque boat in #29 and #33 of this thread - that's all I know of it http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?274047-Delivery-Trip-UK-to-Turkey-Summary-and-Pics/page2. Ring any bells?

 

[MapisM]

Ring any bells?

F*ck yeah! I didn't think of it because there was no reference to Sicily in this thread, but that's no excuse for forgetting one of the few members of the Azzurro fleet...
As an aside, I took the opportunity to cross read again the thread on MYAG delivery trip. Impressive stuff indeed, chapeau to him! :encouragement:

PS: coming to think of it, there was another boat which was indeed not an Azzurro but "Azzurro-esque" as you said, IIRC in a jtb thread about some cruising in Corsica...
Not that it matters anyway, and I'm too lazy to search for it atm!

 

[Hurricane]

Some advice

The Novurania hasn't arrived yet - in fact it hasn't been sent yet!!
But I've started thinking about the best way to tow it (behind the boat - that is)
I received this photo along with some other work in progress pics.

I've ordered the Novurania "three point" towing system.
Which just seems to me to be a couple of extra rings on the port/starboard hull - see above pic.

I am assuming that there is nothing else supplied - maybe those with Novuranias and this extra will confirm.
If so, what would be the best way to rig a tender like this for towing at sea?
How long tow rope - what material - what kind of rig (bridles etc)

 

[jfm]

Yep mike the tick box option is just the two eyelets. They are forged, nice, Wittall. They're installed a bit quick and dirtyish - thru bolted onto tiny backing pads smaller than a playing card, bit crummy. 3 bolts each. If I were doing much serious towing I would remove them, add another 6-10mm GRP layup on the inside and maybe marine ply 12mm pad (it's very accessible, inside anchor locker) about an A4 patch size, feathered edges, then re-bolt the eyes. Take a look and decide

I'd then splice a towing eye contraption that puts the load on all three eyes, or on the two outer eyes with a secondary safety line on the centre eye

I'd be happy without the centre line eye. Its main function is to ding the gelcoat on edge of your swim platform!.

Your photo shows the deep vee entry very nicely

 

[Hurricane]

Yep mike the tick box option is just the two eyelets. They are forged, nice, Wittall. They're installed a bit quick and dirtyish - thru bolted onto tiny backing pads smaller than a playing card, bit crummy. 3 bolts each. If I were doing much serious towing I would remove them, add another 6-10mm GRP layup on the inside and maybe marine ply 12mm pad (it's very accessible, inside anchor locker) about an A4 patch size, feathered edges, then re-bolt the eyes. Take a look and decide

I'd then splice a towing eye contraption that puts the load on all three eyes, or on the two outer eyes with a secondary safety line on the centre eye

I'd be happy without the centre line eye. Its main function is to ding the gelcoat on edge of your swim platform!.

Your photo shows the deep vee entry very nicely

Yep - I expressed some concern over the attachments and they have sent me this showing how they have attached a backing plate.

They say that the hull is re-enforced at that point and that Novurania themselves don't even add the extra plate (remember this is Nautical Ventures doing the finishing work)
But after your comments, I might "beef it up" a bit.

My thoughts were to make a long tow line (at least 25m) from some polyprop hollow braid - perhaps 15mm ish.
Stretchy and floats - a bit like a fatter version of a ski/ringo tow line.
I've got some Dymnema but I think that might not be stretchy enough.
Then tow a long way from the mother ship until arrival at destination - then shorten the tow prior to docking/anchoring.
Using hollow braid, I can make some nice strong Brummel Splices (soft loops).

God, these Novurania people are slow.
I should get more pics this week though and it is nearly ready to ship.

 

[jfm]

Ah ok. I think those backing pads are nicer than mine. I'll get a pic of mine next weekend

If I were towing a lot I'd want some kind of alarm in case I lost the tow. A GSM/GPS device in the tender would work if you're in cell phone range, and AIS TX would work if you spotted the lost tow within say 5 miles, but otherwise you could lose the tender. I'm thinking you need a device that hangs on the rope and has a microswitch operated by the tension in the rope passing around and pushing a peg or pulley against a spring, then a hooter if the rope tension is lost for >20 seconds, or something. Or a lost AIS alarm for that particular target if your Raymarine will do that. Or even a lost marpa target if the tender shows up clearly as a marpa-able target. I haven't really thought this through but you get the idea

 

[Hurricane]

Ah ok. I think those backing pads are nicer than mine. I'll get a pic of mine next weekend

If I were towing a lot I'd want some kind of alarm in case I lost the tow. A GSM/GPS device in the tender would work if you're in cell phone range, and AIS TX would work if you spotted the lost tow within say 5 miles, but otherwise you could lose the tender. I'm thinking you need a device that hangs on the rope and has a microswitch operated by the tension in the rope passing around and pushing a peg or pulley against a spring, then a hooter if the rope tension is lost for >20 seconds, or something. Or a lost AIS alarm for that particular target if your Raymarine will do that. Or even a lost marpa target if the tender shows up clearly as a marpa-able target. I haven't really thought this through but you get the idea

What a fantastic idea
My plan was to install an echo sounder but I'be been looking at the Garmin EchoMap units and it seems to me that I might just as well install one of those and, essentially, get a plotter thrown in.
I was going to install a VHF anyway.
Not bought any kit yet so after your post, it needs some more thought.
Maybe one of those MOB devices would also detect the dinghy if it came adrift.

You've got me thinking now!!!

 

[jfm]

Yes as regards the plotter. Gives you speedo as well; really handy. (And not essential of course)
The MOB thing is a v good idea. Hadn't thought of that. I wonder if they would set off the alarm at a long enough range to allow you to have a long tow line

If you do get a separate radio in the tender you might want to consider resetting the VHF in the mothership, then applying for a new pair of licences online late at night when website traffic is slow. You then get consecutive callsigns and MMSIs. My callsigns for mother ship and tender are 2GPS3 and 2GPS4 respectively, very easy to remember (the letters "GPS" are a coincidence; it has nothing to do with GPS of course but they're very easy to remember). If i'd been 1/2 hour earlier I'd have got 2GPS1 and 2GPS2

 

[jfm]

Even though I am generally in the garmin camp, I fitted a Ray plotter. It is more square shape whereas Garmin is rectangular, so it was easier to fit to the left of the st wheel. I think its an A67

 

[scubaman]

What a fantastic idea
My plan was to install an echo sounder but I'be been looking at the Garmin EchoMap units and it seems to me that I might just as well install one of those and, essentially, get a plotter thrown in.
I was going to install a VHF anyway.
Not bought any kit yet so after your post, it needs some more thought.
Maybe one of those MOB devices would also detect the dinghy if it came adrift.

You've got me thinking now!!!

Maybe an arduino/rasperry pi -gadget sending 'I'm here' messages to the mother ship via wifi? Would integrate with your pc based navigation quite easily. An alarm could be shown if no message is received for ten seconds. Or alternatively the mother ship could just ping the tenders ip and if there is no reply, raise an alarm.

 

[Hurricane]

Just over a year ago, I bought a couple of handheld VHFs with DSC.
But I didn't think of getting the registration sequential.
Don't really use them like that anyway - like all DSC, it is a bit of a waste of time.
And as far as callsign's are concerned, we always use the ships name "Jennywren Tender this is Jennywren" etc....

On the plotter/echo sounder front though.
Garmin have just announced their 2016 upgrade software for the EchoMap range of kit.
I don't know if this will work but I have another "cunning plan".
Maybe using the new Garmin Quick Contours facility, you could anchor outside a bay - jump into the tender and as you drive around, the Garmin EchoMap would survey the bay.
Then, using Garmin's Quick Charts facility, upload your survey to the mothership and re-anchor much closer in - this time, KNOWING exactly where any underwater hazards are.
Just a thought - and a scheme like this might fit into my plan for our dinghy.
Needs more research.
The idea has been around for a while but, in the past, you had to send your soundings off - this does it "on the fly"
These days, GPS systems are getting really accurate - just look at the Phantom 3 and how accurate it positions itself.
Have a look at this page
https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/prod543340.html
and this video

 

[jfm]

That echomap is very clever stuff and wold work great if you used the tender to explore before taking the mother ship in. I guess you'd need a garmin plotter on mother ship too, and transfer the SD card after the reccy visit(?)

 

[Hurricane]

That echomap is very clever stuff and wold work great if you used the tender to explore before taking the mother ship in. I guess you'd need a garmin plotter on mother ship too, and transfer the SD card after the reccy visit(?)

I was wondering if the Garmin "Homeport" software would read the data on the SD card.
The real success for my system would be to read the data into my OpenCPN charts as an overlay using layers but I maybe pushing the concept too far there.
However, I did read somewhere that the Garmin idea is to allow SD cards to be swapped from plotter to plotter so that users can share the data.
If I could get at the data (hopefully in the form of depths at specific long/lats) maybe I could massage it into the appropriate format.
I've done that kind of thing before - maps and charts and their various formats are a hobby of mine.
I successfully wrote a utility to convert all my Memory Map charts into BSB format so that I could use them under OpenCPN.
It might be interesting to do something similar here - another future project - perhaps.

 

[MapisM]

Maybe using the new Garmin Quick Contours facility, you could anchor outside a bay - jump into the tender and as you drive around, the Garmin EchoMap would survey the bay.
Then, using Garmin's Quick Charts facility, upload your survey to the mothership and re-anchor much closer in - this time, KNOWING exactly where any underwater hazards are.

My technique for anchoring the first time in places I don't know well is somewhat simpler: I just ask the 2nd mate (swmbo) to go to the bow, and look at the bottom while I go around slowly.
And TBH, I don't think your hi-tech idea - albeit fascinating in theory - can produce much better results in practice.
Then again, I am a luddite who still thinks it's better to stay at the bow and look at the seabed to find the best possible spot for dropping the hook, rather than using the AnCam, so what do I know...?

 

[Hurricane]

My technique for anchoring the first time in places I don't know well is somewhat simpler: I just ask the 2nd mate (swmbo) to go to the bow, and look at the bottom while I go around slowly.
And TBH, I don't think your hi-tech idea - albeit fascinating in theory - can produce much better results in practice.
Then again, I am a luddite who still thinks it's better to stay at the bow and look at the seabed to find the best possible spot for dropping the hook, rather than using the AnCam, so what do I know...?

Yea Yea Yea
But this is silly season - nothing to do except winter jobs and far fetched projects!!

 

[Hurricane]

Ah ok. I think those backing pads are nicer than mine. I'll get a pic of mine next weekend

If I were towing a lot I'd want some kind of alarm in case I lost the tow. A GSM/GPS device in the tender would work if you're in cell phone range, and AIS TX would work if you spotted the lost tow within say 5 miles, but otherwise you could lose the tender. I'm thinking you need a device that hangs on the rope and has a microswitch operated by the tension in the rope passing around and pushing a peg or pulley against a spring, then a hooter if the rope tension is lost for >20 seconds, or something. Or a lost AIS alarm for that particular target if your Raymarine will do that. Or even a lost marpa target if the tender shows up clearly as a marpa-able target. I haven't really thought this through but you get the idea

I've been thinking about this and now have a cunning plan.

Originally, I thought of (possibly two) embedded devices (either Raspberry Pi or an Arduino) each with a GPS and a radio. The devices would communicate their GPS fixes and alarm if they became too far apart.
Bits for this would probably end up around £150 and there would be a lot of building and programming to get them to work. Also "dead end work" that would be going nowhere.
I also thought of just two embedded devices communicating between each other and alarming if they became separated.

AIS would work but it is a bit expensive and unnecessary for this application.

I'm planning installing one of these in the Novurania dinghy and feeding it with GPS data from a Garmin EchoMap Plotter.
Standard Horizon GX1300E http://www.standardhorizon.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=178_173&products_id=100048
BTW - I like this set because the fist mike only has one simple button - not loads of switches that my family and visitors could push by accident.

Now then - most modern VHF radios can be set to send a "Position Report" after they have received a "Position Request".
These modern DSC VHF radios transmit a Lon and Lat in their "Position Report".
So all I need to do is send a "Position Request" from the mother ship to the tender every 30 seconds or so and the tender's VHF should reply with a "Position Report".
Unfortunately, my mother ship's main Simrad radio doesn't have this "Position Report/Request" feature incorporated.
So, if I were to install a second Standard Horizon GX1300E in (say) JW's cockpit (where it would be useful at other times), I could use this set to interrogate the Novurania's position using the DSC radios.
The beauty of this is that there is a new feature inside these Standard Horizon radios which will "poll" up to 4 preset MMSIs for a "Position Request".

So, assuming that works (and the guy at Standard Horizon thought it would), all I now need is an alarm.
Now here's the interesting bit.
There are some NMEA sentences specifically for this functionality (they are DSC and DSE sentences).
There is very little documented about these sentences - I read somewhere they are essentially the same but the DSE ones are more accurate.
Anyway, it seems that these modern VHF sets (like the Standard Horizon GX1300E) output these sentences when a "Position Report" is received.
So, it should be possible to send them to a plotter with similar functionality.
I would probably send them into my ships PC because the OpenCPN (Open Source Navigator) that I use on the PC specifically handles these "Position Reports" in the same way that it handles AIS targets.
I suspect that most modern plotters would handle these sentences in a similar manner - I believe that they do this kind of thing whenever they receive a VHF DSC distress call.
In my case, I would then write (another winter project!!) an OpenCPN "add on" to "keep track" of our tender from these DSE sentences.

I've looked closely at the GX1300E's manual and it can all be preset in its menu so (once installed), the whole system could be enabled with the press of a few buttons.

This solution has a number of additional benefits.

1. The range is much further than an embedded device - full VHF range.

2. If the tender were to become detached and it wasn't noticed as missing, it should be easy to find using the mother ships plotters.

3. It could be used to track the tender when family/visitors are away on it - going to the shops - the next bay etc.

4. This process could be used to track other friends or boats without AIS transponders.

5. Two years ago, I bought a couple of these handhelds - HX851E handheld VHF sets http://www.standardhorizon.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=100018 - these are full DSC radios complete with GPS receivers so it would be a simple matter of tracking these handhelds in a similar manner.

A really simple idea.

After a discussion with Standard Horizon today, another approach would be to use the new Standard Horizon handheld HX870E which has the Auto Polling built in.
However, this device takes the idea a bit further - the HX870E also has a built in USB interface which would connect directly to my ship's PC - Hmmm needs some more thought - I need to check that bit with Standard Horizon.

Sorry if this post has all been about Standard Horizon - I have absolutely no connection with the company other than I use (and love) their kit.

 

[jfm]

I like all that. Sounds a good way of handling "tender tracking" generally. I didn't even know these position request polling functions existed. If you go ahead and do all this do please keep us up to date on progress

Has the Novu landed yet?