JW's Upgrades for 2016 - Anchoring

[Hurricane]

Yep, as Deleted User says, we're at completely crossed purposes Portofino

On rubbing strips generally, I don't think exposed screw heads should be regarded as inferior. Most builders offer a choice on the rubber insert or not on this size of boat. Ferretti do not have the rubber strip these days by default, Fairline use rubber strip for EU market and exposed screw heads for the US market by default, but customer can specify

On bigger boats btw fairline completely hand finish the joint at the bow, which is nicer than any strip imho, and I'm only bothering to mention that because it gives me an excuse to post this nice picture...

Nop - can't see the join

 

[Portofino]

I think jfm is not talking about the rubbing strake itself but the indentation or channel above it. Again IMHO this is no more than a styling detail designed to break up the bulk of the topsides and trick the eye into thinking the boat is sleeker than it is. Its a trick used in car styling a lot

Ahem - -yup I know it's the notch -just putting forward an explanation as to how they made it .
Cos it could be that the gunwale bit above the rubbing strip is actually a seperate mould to the major hull mould it's attached to .
Attached via the rubbing strip -which actually cos its not at the grater circumference not a rubbing strip -just summit to conceal the joint , that's what alerted my suspicions from the photos -why do that there ? I mean all those self tappers evident ?

This means if that's correct ( not sure ?) then that explained how they got the undercut / notch -out of mould -cos in fact it was never in the hull mould to start with it was/is the bottom few inches of another separate mould later attached .

If that's the case then you can give the gunwhale design to Chris Bangnol of BMW 5 series fame -- to put seemingly "undercut " notches in ,as long he realisers they need to come out of the mould -no undercuts , with GRP .

 

[Portofino]

Yep, as Deleted User says, we're at completely crossed purposes Portofino

On rubbing strips generally, I don't think exposed screw heads should be regarded as inferior. Most builders offer a choice on the rubber insert or not on this size of boat. Ferretti do not have the rubber strip these days by default, Fairline use rubber strip for EU market and exposed screw heads for the US market by default, but customer can specify

On bigger boats btw fairline completely hand finish the joint at the bow, which is nicer than any strip imho, and I'm only bothering to mention that because it gives me an excuse to post this nice picture...

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj304/jfm2008/2013%20Squadron%2078%20new%20build%20vol5/
.jpg

Yes agreed looks like the hull is hewn out of one solid piece ,but the Priny has concealed joint ( if I,am right two sections )

 

[jfm]

Yup Portofino, for sure the joint between hull and deck moulds is concealed by the s/s rubbing strip (which is perfectly fine in my books - the only other place to do it is at the gunwhale then fit a capping rail (eg s/seeker 28m) but that adds work for the owner) . The flared white GRP above the s/s rub strip is for sure part of the deck moulding, not the hull. Even without the groove/notch that deck is a potentially difficult item to get out of its mould, but the groove/notch adds a further difficulty so Princess must really have wanted to do it

No worries - I think we have done this to death

 

[Hurricane]

FWIW
I have dug out the original factory build photos.

JFM - This one shows the inside of the boat and I think the reverse knuckle you were talking about (from the inside).

And these next ones show the deck/hull join - bonded inside I believe.

 

[MrB]

Yep, as Deleted User says, we're at completely crossed purposes Portofino

On rubbing strips generally, I don't think exposed screw heads should be regarded as inferior. Most builders offer a choice on the rubber insert or not on this size of boat. Ferretti do not have the rubber strip these days by default, Fairline use rubber strip for EU market and exposed screw heads for the US market by default, but customer can specify

On bigger boats btw fairline completely hand finish the joint at the bow, which is nicer than any strip imho, and I'm only bothering to mention that because it gives me an excuse to post this nice picture...

Hand finished :encouragement:

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Hand finished :encouragement:

Now you're just being smutty! You can get banned for less on this forum. In fact shouldn't jfm get banned as well for such gratuitous Lakesailoring

 

[Hurricane]

Just an update

We got back from Alcudia and before putting the boat to bed, we refueled her and decided to test out the anchor.

Deleted User is right - this anchor sets immediately.
No faffing around - it just "digs in" with a "jolt" in comparison to the Delta.

We deliberately chose a muddy bottom - I wanted to see how difficult it would be to pull it out again.
And it came up easily.

For the moment, I have decided not to install a swivel - just a substantial shackle (16mm in fact) - fits through the anchor but the shackle pin had to go through the chain.
When we lifted it, it came up the wrong way round.
SWMBO asked what she should do.
I said just ease it up until the shaft reaches the roller.
And as it got close to the roller, the pull of the chain "swiveled it" round in the correct orientation.
Not for the same reason but in a similar manner to the banana (Twist) swivel.

The only disappointment was my "home brew" chain counter.
The software didn't know whether it was launching or recovering the anchor so my "speaking lady" was saying "going up - going down - going up" etc...
A friend who knows my voice systems said to me that "it's a woman" - "of course it can't make its mind up".

Earlier this year, I had tested it using the helm anchor switches and they work.
It seems that it only goes wrong when SWMBO is using the hand remote switch (curly wire switch) on the bow.
I have picked up signals by wiring to the Lewmar relay - the low power side of the switch which, of course, has a coil and this might be having an effect on my interface.
It only needs to sense the windlass "Up" - by default my software considers anything else as "going down" so that it will count when deploying the anchor by hand using the clutch.
So, my plan is to connect my interface to sense the output of the relay (the high load side that is actually connected to the windlass motor)
My circuitry incorporates opto isolators so there is no actual electronic connection to the boat.
It will be fun to get this working - it works when the boat is in the marina using the helm switches so it should be possible to finish the job off.

 

[vas]

So, my plan is to connect my interface to sense the output of the relay (the high load side that is actually connected to the windlass motor)
My circuitry incorporates opto isolators so there is no actual electronic connection to the boat.
It will be fun to get this working - it works when the boat is in the marina using the helm switches so it should be possible to finish the job off.

nice going Mike,

I'm also considering where I should pick my windlass up signal on my chain counter (the whole lot is working fine on the bench without this up triggering business)
I also have 3 sets of controls, bow footswitches, lower helm and f/b toggle. Was planning to steal off the relay pin (not the high load though) as I was hoping that I can do that by the lowerhelm toggle and avoid running massive lengths of cable around. On the grounds that all three up signals join together at the relay on the anchor locker so no matter whichone closes circuit current will flow to the others as well (so to the lower helm)
Since I also have some optoisolators and current sensors I may try the high side as well but not before testing the easy option first...

cheers

V.

 

[Hurricane]

OK - so one summer season later - How Did the Rocna Perform?

In the early part of the season, we only used it in the Sant Carles lagoon and a few times in Costa Brava.
The Sant Carles lagoon has such good holding that even a frying pan on a bit of string would hold you - only joking.
Up in Roses, we really only used it once but it was faultless and we were able to tie back to the rocks and winch back against the Rocna.
Here's a pic

So, having not really used it, I was keen to see how well it works when used in anger.
The difference between this new Rocna and our old Delta is like the difference between chalk and cheese.
It goes down and sets immediately - doesn't move or drag at all.
I just feel so confident with it.
For example (on my own) at anchor just outside Arenal I was about 50m from the marina wall with about 20 knots of wind blowing me towards the sea wall.
With the old anchor, I would have been worrying about it all the time - essentially, the old Delta would gradually "plough" its way down the wind.

Last year, Santa Ponsa was an anchorage where we dragged badly and had to reset the old Delta several times.
The bottom is all weed and doesn't give very good holding for any anchor.
This year the Rocna went in and stayed put for a couple of days without budging an inch.
There were lots of localised thunder storms so winds did blow up for short spells.

On the old anchor, I used a swivel called "The Twist" - a banana shaped swivel that ensures the anchor will recover the correct way up.
The Twist works well but with the extra load, I decided to try the new Rocna without any swivels at all.
I'm sure that there will be people who disagree but, for me any swivel is a weak link in the system.
I was going to buy a Wichard shackle but there is enough space to fit a standard shackle several gauges heaver than the chain.
The chain is 12mm - I think the shackle is 18mm.
This season, I also fitted a Lewmar Chain Stopper like this

Previously, we always used a bridle and snubber with a chain hook to take the load off the windlass.
I don't know if it is just laziness but this year, we have simply flipped the flap over on the Lewmar Stopper and clipped on a backup strop.
Maybe if we were at anchor with visitors in the forward cabin and the boat was swinging a lot, we might revert back to the bridle and chain hook method.

We have slightly changed our technique when recovering the anchor.
We now stop the winch when the anchor is just below the surface and reverse up slowly.
This washes any mud/sand or weed off the anchor and rotates it the correct way round before it runs over the bow roller.
Here's a pic from "Ancam"

Oh, yes, we also upgraded the windlass from a V4 to a V5 by just changing the motor and gearbox.

Anyway, I now have loads of confidence in our anchoring upgrade.
I didn't realise just how much stress it takes out of anchoring.
I wish I'd done this upgrade years ago.

Just one word for it - Fantastic.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

The difference between this new Rocna and our old Delta is like the difference between chalk and cheese.
It goes down and sets immediately - doesn't move or drag at all.
I just feel so confident with it.

My feeling entirely. We have done more anchoring this season than ever before and that is because my confidence in my Rocna has grown so much. As you say, it sets very quickly; in fact you have to be careful backing down on it because it can bring the boat up so hard. In my experience, the Bruce anchor is not on the same planet as the Rocna and the Delta just isn't as good. I now have a direct comparison between the 60kg Delta we have used for the past 2 seasons and the 55kg Rocna we are using this season and no question, the Rocna performs better

This season, I also fitted a Lewmar Chain Stopper like this

Yup I did too although it was a Quick chain stopper and the yard in Sardinia made a very nice job of fitting it. I would say a chain stopper is essential with the Rocna because it sets so hard and quick

I don't know if it is just laziness but this year, we have simply flipped the flap over on the Lewmar Stopper and clipped on a backup strop.

We have continued with setting our bridle this year in windy conditions, even with the chain stopper, principally because the chain on our boat grinds on the forward bow roller when the boat is shearing around and you can hear that throughout the whole boat. I'm thinking about trying to find a different roller that will encapsulate the chain better

We now stop the winch when the anchor is just below the surface and reverse up slowly.
This washes any mud/sand or weed off the anchor and rotates it the correct way round before it runs over the bow roller.

Mmm I wonder who suggested that in the past on this forum

 

[BruceK]

read with interest. Thanks for the update.

 

[Hurricane]

Just been sorting my pics from the last few months and came across this one.

Shows just how well the Rocna sets.
The anchor set at about 1 o'clock in the pic (in relation to the anchor's centre) - then swung round overnight (you can see where the chain marked the sand.
In the pic, the boat is pulling at about 5 o'clock (in relation to the anchor's centre).
But, note there is no sign of any troughs or any drag.
In this case, the old Delta Anchor would have had at least a rut/furrow of 3 or 4 metres.

 

[rwoofer]

Once you've had a new style anchor you can't go back. As well as a Rocna I've also had a spade which is equally good if you need a non-hoop anchor.

 

[Bouba]

A good thread until I realised that the delta anchor you are dissing is the same lovely shinning thing that's on the front of my boat. I've been impressed by the delta but then I've never parked in a gale and now of course I'm worried. You picture is very impressive and the rocna website is interesting. The question I have is is it easy to retrieve?

 

[Hurricane]

The question I have is is it easy to retrieve?

So far, the windlass has managed to pull it out when vertically above but my thoughts are that I would use the chain stopper and pull with the engines if it doesn't pullout.
After checking if it isn't caught (under a rock or something) that is.
Sometimes we set a trip (mainly in rocky anchorages) - we use one of these http://www.swi-tec.us/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=30
Have a look at the little video on their website.
This year, I made a short hoop out of floating rope that lays on the water surface making it easier to retrieve with the anchor.

 

[Bouba]

So far, the windlass has managed to pull it out when vertically above but my thoughts are that I would use the chain stopper and pull with the engines if it doesn't pullout.
After checking if it isn't caught (under a rock or something) that is.
Sometimes we set a trip (mainly in rocky anchorages) - we use one of these http://www.swi-tec.us/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=30
Have a look at the little video on their website.
This year, I made a short hoop out of floating rope that lays on the water surface making it easier to retrieve with the anchor.

The video didn't work and the customer reviews were in German but I got the jist of it. It looks very clever but also very expensive

 

[Bouba]

There is one in the French Uship catalogue for 280€

 

[Magnum]

Hurricane. Wise anchor/chain upgrades in my opinion.

I was horrified to learn that our 68 was going to be supplied with 60m of 10mm chain. This is madness on a 70ft 38 tonne boat although Princess say it's within spec, just.

First upgrade for us was a stainless 61Kg Ultra anchor. Far better than the standard 40Kg Lewmar.

But as you have already said the biggest improvement comes from 12mm over 10mm chain. We too had 10mm on our old 67 and dragged several times which just discourages you from anchoring more often. Our sailing boat had 12mm chain and the difference in a blow was incredible. It would take a 35 knot plus wind to even lift all the chain and then only just.

So we are going for 80mm of 12mm on the 68. I'm happy with galv chain although Princess have suggested stainless due to it flowing better in the locker. It's obviously bulkier than 10mm but even so I wouldn't have thought an extra 20m would make that much difference.

Interesting that you have 150m. Wow. Do you ever use anywhere approaching that much?

 

[Portofino]

Hurricane. Wise anchor/chain upgrades in my opinion.

I was horrified to learn that our 68 was going to be supplied with 60m of 10mm chain. This is madness on a 70ft 38 tonne boat although Princess say it's within spec, just.

Just a refference point -we have 60M of 10mm ----- in a 14M. 18 tonner . 1/2 your Weight !
So "horrified " not surprised .