Just looked at cost of navionics + cards, wtf! are they insane?

[BobnLesley]

Let me tell you my chart plotter story.

... I bought the latest Navionics cards for my intended voyage ...got a cell signal and downloaded the Navionics app onto my phone.

I've never bought electronic charts for UK waters, but there's got to be more to it than Government Licencing fees and I suspect that 'something more' is 'what the market will stand' pricing?
I recall that the Navionics chart packages, downloaded onto my Android pad for the whole of the South Pacific, including New Zealand and the east coast of Australia, cost me less than £100 and I could download to three, or it might even have been five devices for that price. But if you wanted to buy the Navionics 'cards' to plug into a chart plotter, that same information cost about £800. And it was the 'same' information; we did several randomly chosen comparisons of the info/details shown on each and never once found anything missing on the android download version.

We also had those free C-Map charts downloaded onto a laptop as well and whilst we did have a few occasions where they were less detailed/accurate than the Navionics offering, we found an equal number where they proved to be more accurate than the Navionics too.

 

[lustyd]

but that seems unlikely as long as it can self fund from its sales of charts

Going back to my original point though, that should have changed as the data became public domain.
It started self funding late 1990’s so hardly long dead.

 

[steve yates]

Oh dear, that's the very basic entry level model Steve. It does not come with charts, does not support NMEA 0183 or NMEA 2000 and cannot display AIS.

Bugger, back to the rethink then!

 

[Babylon]

Steve, if you can return your existing kit (or flog it on) then have a look at ONWA. I've just bought this ONWA 9" KP-29A with AIS transmitter/receiver 9" push-button plotter with integral AIS B for £599, which has rear ports for both NMEA 2000 and NMEA 0189 etc (see attachment below), and has its own brand K-CHART preloaded but also supports Navionics+ and C-Map MAX.

There is also a 5" version for £359 and a 7" one for £499 with same functionality - but I wanted a decent sized screen.

The alternative is their MFD (multi-function display) 8" plotter for £750 which in addition to integral AIS B can also overlay radar and a range of instrument displays (but I decided against this for myself as unnecessary overkill on my boat) and which is similarly fully equipped to accept all current and legacy protocols etc: KM-8A with Class B+ SOTDMA 5 Watt AIS

Alan at AVES MARINE who is the UK importer/retailer is fantastically knowledgeable and helpful.

 

[Refueler]

I don't believe there is any such thing. For one thing, there is no subscription with Garmin charts, you buy the card and it's yours. You get free updates for the first year of ownership and at the end of the year you can optionally renew it for half price and get another year of free updates. If you don't pay to update it you keep using it, it does not expire and you can pay the half price deal for a full update at any time. Mine is currently 4 years old, still works and i can still update it, if i want.

I'll bet good money the Ebay ones are pirate copies, which is why you cannot update them because you cannot register them with Garmin.

If they work, which i dare say they will, that's not a problem, as long as you're happy with pirate charts.

Paul - I did not reply this when you posted on another thread ... but considering your repeat - I will now answer.

The subscription term I use loosely ... yes you buy a card .. get 1 yrs updates free ... but then you need to pay a fee again to renew for another years updates - a 'subscription' in effect. Don't pay and you keep charts as they are .. no updates.

As to the eBay cards .. I assume that many could be 'cloned' cards .. but who's to say they are not just cards that previous owner failed to pay next years update ? The ownership / registration is non transferrable ... so if I buy at 50 quid - I cannot register it to resume updates ,... Garmin do not allow such option. The only reason I have option to pay 1/2 price update on my Swedish card for my 92sv .. is that previous owner of the boat never registered the card ... the plotter was only fitted the year I bought the boat. I registered both the plotter and the card.
But the full Baltic card is 2024 ... and I cannot register it ... bought fully understanding that.
I can buy a 2025 card for 50 quid ... and the total of both cards still comes less cost than paying another years update on the Swedish only area card !!

 

[Refueler]

Definitely is. I have three of them. When they expire you can choose to buy an update card (new physical card) and activate with the old card. You then choose region (doesn’t have to be the same) and the new card downloads new charts. Old card still works but cannot update again or activate further cards.
This is a Navionics feature, probably not on the Garmin side.

Actiuve Captain and Express offer to sell me update of my Swedish card for 1/2 price ... and as said here - it downloads to a new card ... old card remains old.

 

[Refueler]

I think Garmin ones must be different then. Maybe i'll update mine one day and find out for sure.

Active Capt / Express download to new card ... so it is Garmin as well.

 

[Refueler]

I've never bought electronic charts for UK waters, but there's got to be more to it than Government Licencing fees and I suspect that 'something more' is 'what the market will stand' pricing?
I recall that the Navionics chart packages, downloaded onto my Android pad for the whole of the South Pacific, including New Zealand and the east coast of Australia, cost me less than £100 and I could download to three, or it might even have been five devices for that price. But if you wanted to buy the Navionics 'cards' to plug into a chart plotter, that same information cost about £800. And it was the 'same' information; we did several randomly chosen comparisons of the info/details shown on each and never once found anything missing on the android download version.

We also had those free C-Map charts downloaded onto a laptop as well and whilst we did have a few occasions where they were less detailed/accurate than the Navionics offering, we found an equal number where they proved to be more accurate than the Navionics too.

All the Chart formats are expensive ... C-Map ... Navionics .... CM93 etc ... in card / DVD / hard form.

But the Tablet / Phone Navionics Boating is IMHO sensibly priced.

What I cannot understand is that I can update my Boating Navionics each day ... for that roughly 50 quid subscription for a year ... same data as would be for a Card into my plotter - but then card is priced at 300 odd quid .... (need to check actual price) .... point is why can Boating App price so much lower than the Card version ??
I think if Garmin priced all similarly as the Boating App ... number of sales would dramatically increase ... and threads like this would be redundant ??

 

[stranded]

Do those of you who don’t update your Raymarine plotter Navionics cards have a problem with the display degrading? I have Navionics Western Europe on a c125 and if I don’t update it regularly, including during paid subscription, the chart becomes less bright, or maybe slightly greyed. It’s not massive, but definitely less easy to see. I think it’s either a deliberate “feature” of the card - I bought a whole new card a couple of years ago to try to stop it but it still happens - so I think it is the plotter. But can’t imagine what it’s up to. Any insights?

 

[KompetentKrew]

As far as I am aware there isn’t an issue of “you own nothing” with Navionics plotter cards.

No, I was referring to Orca there. Orca's model is that you rent the chart data from them - I think you can currently use it for free if you have cell reception, but you have to pay £7 (?) a month if you go offshore. And I can't see how the free online data is commercially sustainable once everyone has Starlink.

I dislike Orca's model but Orca are going to eat Navionics and C-Map for breakfast unless they simplify chart buying so it's less confusing (as demonstrated by the examples in my comment and by the starting of this thread).

 

[KompetentKrew]

Sorry to disagree ... but there old DOS programs that DO WRITE exact full card ID copies .... incl the Digital Secure ID ...

Not only that but for a long time Garmin Unlocker has been out there ...

It was probably you who disagreed before.

Read my comment again, the one you replied to. Any program can make a complete exact copy of the block device - yes, you're right! it's trivial. The SD card's magic number is outside the block device, and the specification also says it should not be writable.

If you sit down at your laptop PC and right click in the appropriate apps (Disk Utility or System Viewer?) then you can find the hard-drive's serial number. You can format the hard-drive or wipe it or do a "full card ID copy" and it still displays the same serial number - because the serial number is outside the block device.

If these magic programs exist then demonstrate it - go to Argos and buy yourself a new SD card, then use the program to copy your Navionics card to the new SD card. Why doesn't the new card work in your chatplotter?

EDIT: there's some discussion of this in this blog article where the author writes / modifies a tool to change the CID of certain models of Samsung SD cards, and in this article which lists some of the model numbers.

 

[Irish Rover]

Do those of you who don’t update your Raymarine plotter Navionics cards have a problem with the display degrading? I have Navionics Western Europe on a c125 and if I don’t update it regularly, including during paid subscription, the chart becomes less bright, or maybe slightly greyed. It’s not massive, but definitely less easy to see. I think it’s either a deliberate “feature” of the card - I bought a whole new card a couple of years ago to try to stop it but it still happens - so I think it is the plotter. But can’t imagine what it’s up to. Any insights?

Interesting. As I said earlier the charts on my Axioms are out of date since 2019. The screen on my A9 is default a bit dim on the left side but I always assumed it was a back-light issue and it doesn't bother me enough to do something about it.

 

[Refueler]

I used to create copy cards for personal use ... habit I got into many years ago ... the original then put away safely in the drawer,

Its no point doing now as the card if registered would flag up as already registered if you tried to register the clone.

The other way with older Navionics cards ... was to take an original old card and overwrite with desired other area files ... the card worked because the Digital ID was still valid ...

I don't need to test above .. as I know it worked then and will still work today ...

But you need to get hold of the old DOS programs to do it .... there are no Windows or Mac programs that can do it.

 

[steve yates]

Oh dear, that's the very basic entry level model Steve. It does not come with charts, does not support NMEA 0183 or NMEA 2000 and cannot display AIS.

Just looked back in for sale forum, it was supplied to me with the charts already loaded, so thats ok.

 

[steve yates]

Steve, if you can return your existing kit (or flog it on) then have a look at ONWA. I've just bought this ONWA 9" KP-29A with AIS transmitter/receiver 9" push-button plotter with integral AIS B for £599, which has rear ports for both NMEA 2000 and NMEA 0189 etc (see attachment below), and has its own brand K-CHART preloaded but also supports Navionics+ and C-Map MAX.

There is also a 5" version for £359 and a 7" one for £499 with same functionality - but I wanted a decent sized screen.

The alternative is their MFD (multi-function display) 8" plotter for £750 which in addition to integral AIS B can also overlay radar and a range of instrument displays (but I decided against this for myself as unnecessary overkill on my boat) and which is similarly fully equipped to accept all current and legacy protocols etc: KM-8A with Class B+ SOTDMA 5 Watt AIS

Alan at AVES MARINE who is the UK importer/retailer is fantastically knowledgeable and helpful.

Funnily enough I have spent most of the day looking at all the various options and combos, its tediously boring & complex! And I had come to pretty much the same conclusion…get the onwa gear.
I have a little 18ft boat with a knackered old garmin 182 I just used for gps and I have been tarting her up for the baltimore jester next year, (then hopefully round Ireland) as I was too slow for last year.
Plus I have the bigger longbow ketch, which I have stripped of its ancient knackered kit and electrics and am redoing from scratch. I am hoping to take that on baltic,norway, faroes, iceland kinda trips.
After a couple of years I kinda see one or both being sold and a bigger bluewater cruiser bought instead. I want to bring them up to a good standard for what I will use them for but not spend a complete fortune, unless its on gear I can take to my final boat.
I have come up with this:
Get a smaller onwa plotter for the wee boat and a bigger 8 or 9” onwa mfd for the big boat, For just over £1250 that gets both of them a plotter with uk charting and more to the point, ais transmission and recieve via independant ariels, probably the biggest safety thing I can introduce as a singlehander.
I can then add wind data if I want it, which I probably will, for £360 each boat.
Both already have simple nasa depth sounders and new vhf radios with ais and I have a couple of yakkers I’ll wire in to feed ais from the vhf to my ipad, which is my main navigation tool.
That’s both boats got pretty much everything I could need for under £2k, including redundancy in navigation and ais.
I’ll sell all the other “bargains” I have collected in the last few years, including the echomap, and that will cover about a third of the price. (Unless I keep bits to put back in place of this new gear on selling the boats)
Before the big boat heads off I can add onwas radome, currently £1850 to complete the set up of shiny new instruments and far more available info than I have ever had or used I’ll be so busy admiring my screens I’ll run onto the rocks!

 

[Babylon]

Steve, your thinking makes good sense! Also sticking with one brand and getting to know its menu structures and features inside out is a no-brainer... and if you switch the screen on you might even spot the rock symbols before you hit one!