Just got to post this

[Guest]

In Baltic gear is regulated

Similar tio French - but eg Estonia boat is inspected annually for compliance.

BUT - rest assured their are ways around it and some do exactly that ..... they borrow gear from other boats ready for the guy to look over. Obviously if it has a boat name on - its not borrowed - before anyone picks up on that one.
It is rare that a spot check is carried out ..... so youre pretty safe. Anyway even if they did catch you - they give you time to get the gear before maybe coming back ...


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[aitchw]

Qualifications won't help. Emergency services charging for attending the foolhardy might. They are entitled to do so but I don't know if they ever do.

There is plenty of info on minimum levels of equipment and maybe all that is needed is for this to become statutory and for the emergency services to automatically charge fees if the attended vessel has failed to comply. That way you do not incurr costs for inspecting, those not complying will know they face a fat bill if they get into trouble and the authorities will be able to be consistent in their application of the rule.

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[duncan]

I think we are agreeing in a way - I emphasised 'basic' and tried to give an example to illustrate that and none of theitems you mentioned would be on that v.short list!. Part of my thinking revolves around the need to get people actually thinking themselves about the issues (before they become blindingly obvious as illustated) and taking responsibility for their trips. The MCA and RNLI have struggled to get people's attention to basic safety, as an earlier thread from them last month.
However I absolutely agree with the generalisation that regulation to save people from themselves is a last resort.

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[Stemar]

The biggest problem is that you can't teach common sense. The French have an expression "quand on est c*n c'est pour la vie" which can be loosly translated as stupidity is for life.

To quote Arthur Ransome "better drowned than duffers - if not duffers won't drown." The trouble is that duffer survivors, or the next of kin if they're more successful will be looking for someone to sue

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[cmckesson]

Hello, pardon me for jumping in...Just a lurker from across the Pond here (American.)

Had the same incident happen to us locally - chap had no compass, etc. Fortunately we were in a fairly enclosed Sound so he'd pretty much hit land within a few miles either direction so we waved him on his way...

Here in the US we do have a mandatory minimum of equipment but it's pretty sparse. For example life jackets, a horn, fire extinguishers, flares, and a mandatory placard about the illegalites of tipping rubbish overboard, but no requirement to have a compass or charts. Our Canadian neighbors have more strenuous - and IMHO sensible - requirements.

Can you tell me what the requirements are in the UK? We are just in the early days of planning a cruise in the EU, perhaps as early as 2006. I take it from the thread that there is no mandatory licensing in the UK, but there is some homologation in France. Are any of these requirements imposed upon foreign-flagged vessels? Do you have to comply with French minima when visiting French waters?

Just trying to get a taste of your life. Thanks!

Chris McKesson
currently Puget Sound, Washington, USA

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[Robin]

Welome to the forum Chris.

You are accepted as complying with your own country's (country of registration) requirements. So a UK boat (with no compulsory requirements unless set up for charter or above a certain size which I believe is 15m) does not therefore have to comply with French requirements. You will find though that UK boats, despite the lack of compulsory equipment lists, are often if not usually BETTER equipped than their French counterparts. I discussed this once with some French yotties and they agreed, saying we (Brits but also other 'non-French) have a more active imagination as to what COULD happen and are prepared for it whereas they (French) have a much more laid back attitude to risk and need to have regulation. The problem with regulation is that people will comply with the listed requirements alone and not think for themselves and go beyond that if their form of boating activity justifies it. An example is the radar reflector, Brit boats in French waters are easily identified at a distance since nearly all have chosen to permanently fit a large and very effective white cylindrical radar reflector (it's encased in grp, a Firdell Blipper or Gillie Firth) mounted on the mast. French boats (required by regulation to have a reflector) have them either stowed below still in the wrapper, or tiny things mounted wrong way up, or have the little tubular 'Mobri' ones which are way too small even if they are mounted as intended. Nanny State interference IMHO simply creates ninnies to be nannied.....


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[Metabarca]

Re: Min requirements

Since we're on the subject, here in Italy there are also minimum requirements for a boat putting to sea: flares, one lifejacket per person aboard, first-aid kit, a lifebelt on the pulpit and (if I remember rightly) VHF if more than 12 miles offshore. I doubt this applies to foreign-flagged vessels but there can't be many foreign boats with at least this minimum stuff aboard!

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[snowleopard]

<You are accepted as complying with your own country's (country of registration) requirements>

remember the furore when new zealand tried to impose its own safety requirements on yachts in transit? it sounded like a good idea to try to force boats passing through the area to be properly equipped because NZ has to cover a huge area for SAR. in practice however the rules stopped a lot of people visiting because word got round that they were too strict and the costs to cruisers were high.

you can't win!

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[Robin]

Yes absolutely! My answer was related to his question about Europe only. The NZ thing seemed very daft to me, you had to be very capable, boat and crew to have got there in the first place but then some pen pusher decides you are not well enough equipped to leave!

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[duncan]

Re: Min requirements

now that's the sort of sensible minimum I was thinking about - enough to consider the basic needs of those taken out by the skiper on the one hand, and hopefully get the skipper thinking a bit more about what he should have for his boat/boating.

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[cmckesson]

Re: Min requirements

Thanks for the information! My feeling is that my own requirements to be comfortable in my safety while sailing across the Atlantic will be more strenuous than domestic "yottie" regulations. But then that presumes that common sense can rule the day, and sadly in bureaucracies this is not often the case. In the US we get a chuckle from the requirement that singlehanders must carry a life buoy...Who is going to throw it to them? Or the requirements that do make sense but that are not related to mere seamanship, such as our two required placards: "Discharge of oil is prohibited..." and "Discharge of garbage is permitted only ...." These placards DO serve to keep me reminded of the rules, but they are not on the same axis as life jackets, flare guns, good ground tackle, stout rigging, etc.

Thanks again for your replies! Best regards to all,

Chris McKesson



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[alec]

In some ways I can understand how these people get into trouble.

Normal life is full of rules, regulations red tape, can’t do this can’t do that, must have a licence for this - then you come across sailing.

You don’t need anything. The obvious conclusion to the uninitiated is that it can’t be dangerous or threatening then can it ? . Hence the problem.

‘A wise ignorance is an essential part of knowledge’


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[kmp8]

Hello Manxman!

Weren't you the lucky one! - all too often these TOSSERS get us all a bad name. You do know that the word here in Bangor is that one of the "teenagers" is in fact in HIS early twenties. Not only is the lad a crew member of the Fisheries Ministry's Patrol Boat working out of Bangor but IS ALSO A CREW MEMBER OF BANGOR IN SHORE LIFE BOAT!!!! I'll mention no names but suffice as to say that young "MC" now has a lot of egg on his face - especially since it was one of his Dads colleagues who picked them up!!!

KMP8

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[claymore]

It wasn't a green Red Bay Stormforce rib was it?

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Claymore<font color=purple>
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[bycanon]

This really does prove the old saying ' a story loses nothing in the telling'. It was a very stupid mistake by the young people in the boat and a hard lesson for all involved (and no, they weren't all qualified rescue coxs) . However, contary to your story 'Manxman', all people in the boat did have lifejackets/ bouyancy aids on, they had flares (which they used) and one of the guys also had the wit to rig a sea anchor.

How many people criticising on this forum can honestly say they have never made a stupid mistake in their life. I know for a fact a few of those who replied have made worse ones then these guys!

And as for 'KMP8', i don't know what he hoped to achieve by identifying one of the guys. Seems like petty bitchiness to me.

It was a long and scary day for all the young people and their families. The last thing anyone needs is a whole lot of grown man and women sticking the boot in. I just pray that it never happens to any of you or your loved ones.

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[PhilF]

surprised they had flares

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