Junk Rig

[jleaworthy]

The chinese rig is a balanced lug sail but one that is easily reefed and controlled because of its full length battens controlled by sheetlets, and lazy jacks to hold the reefed portion of the sail. The western balanced lug has none of these controls and is virtually unreefable.

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[MainlySteam]

I am not too sure where your reference to "western balanced lug" springs from, nor the relevance of them not being fully battened or reefable. Being familiar with his internet site I understood that Spark was referring to rigs of the Nigel Irens Roxanne and Romilly style, which are modern lug derivatives. As far as I am aware (I have only seen photographs of them) those are fully battened and also have reefing points. So in my own reference to "lug" when responding to Spark and mentioning the tall junk rigged vessel, those were the sails I had in mind.

I think some true traditionalists might take task with all of us and insist that a lug sail has no boom and that a junk rig is not a true lug rig either. I am starting to get the feeling that many proponents of junk rigs have fallen into a black hole from which they have a blind spot to any other alternatives, even if from the same family of rigs.

If you have not done so already, I suggest that you have a look at Spark's internet site and see a proper application of a derived rig maintained in an historical context but not stuck in the ruts of the past - as I said before, also on a beautiful boat which is beautifully built. If you are not familiar with Roxanne and Romilly (think that is the spelling) there are photographs of them to be found on the internet but I do not have any of the addresses to hand. I would suggest that these rigs are all far superior to the junk rig and they have probably become so because their designers have not approached the design of them with a closed mind.

John

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[jleaworthy]

I've done better than look at Spark's website - I've been to see his boat!! I understand that Malcolm is no longer going for a lug rig but something closer to that of a Freedom Yacht. Malcolm has built a magnificent boat with a level of craftmanship rarely seen today. He has also designed a most sophisticated electric propulsion system. I hope to see his yacht moving silently up the loch before too long, whether under sail or motor.

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[borne]

Just wanted to add a bit.
A good cruising friend of mine has a type of freedom rig and has used lampposts for masts.
these are often produced to beter specifications than "propper " masts and cost a fraction as much. They would be equally suitable for a junk rig.
Any one who has looked into these alternative rigs will know that the loads involved are a fraction of those in a bermudan and the rig has less chance of failing through being overloaded by wind, in a rollover or by gear failure.

I have been cruising for the last 2 years on my bermudan rigged boat and will be considering an alternative rig on my next boat.

Lastly, if I had listened to all of the supposed "experts" then I would never have left the UK. Most of the people who give advice are people who sail plastic boats on the odd weekend. If you want meaningfull answers, ask a livaboard or long term cruiser.

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[MainlySteam]

John

It certainly looks a real labour of love on the internet. Have you seen any of the Nigel Irens boats in real life? From the photographs I have seen, which have only been those available on the internet, they also appear to be quite close to the "Freedom" style. Perhaps you could comment if you have seen them - or seen better photographs than I have.

I am moving on, I have better things to do than try (or want) to convert the fanatics. However, despite the various comments about how "real" cruising people understand how good junk rigs are (the fact is the vast majority do not, and never will use or want to use a junk rig) and how good their performance is, including some claims of close windedness (we are not going to see the rig adopted in race boats unless some one design dictates it) the junk rig will never be widely popular. Newer derivatives of lug rigs may be so as they adopt modern design and materials; junk will not because it appears quite clear that it will be stuck in a time warp by the wild claims of its overwhelming superiority over other rigs in its current ancient form. I'll eat my hat if all the world's experienced cruisers all start converting to junk, and if the next America's Cup even has an junk rigged yacht competing - I think my hat is pretty safe.

John

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[Aramas]

That's a rather remarkable, and dare I say, unsupportable view of not only junk rigs, but lugsails. Far from being ancient, the currently most common form of western junk rig is the Hasler/McLeod version, which is much newer than the bermudan rig, and has the benefit of 40 years of 'modern' development. It's not a chinese rig, it's an english one. Is anyone silly enough to claim that no one ever set a triangular sail in the ancient world? If an ancient assyrian did, would that make the bermudan rig an ancient assyrian one, and it's proponents fools? They're certainly not short on zeal.
Perhaps I should settle into my ancient chair, sip coffee from my ancient cup, put my feet up on the ancient table and attempt a reply.
After all is said and done, a junk rig is a fully battened balanced lug rig. Hasler's book contains a great deal of design information that could be used and developed further, however, most people use the recommended form since it works and it requires very little mental effort to implement - not that much more than a bermudan rig.
If someone ran control lines to the battens of the balanced lugsails on George Holmes' Ethel or Cassie, would they become 'ancient chinese' rigs, and their owners fools? Would the square headed fully battened 'bermudan' mains on A class cats become 'ancient chinese' standing junk rigs with the addition of batten control lines? Are they already, in fact, gaff rigs? Is Phil Bolger's 'chinese gaff' rig a gaffer or just more recycled ancient stupidity? More importantly, who gives a toss what they're called?
So is a 'modern' balanced lug rig a great new development, whereas the same rig called a junk is an ancient chinese contraption used only by zealous idiots that don't know anything?
Interesting enough, most people who acknowledge that the battened lug/junk rig is a viable alternative (and just one among many) have experience with bermudan as well. Those that like to prattle on about the shortcomings of both the rigs and their owners, usually have no experience at all with the rig. If people use a rig and like it, then what's to criticise? Conversely, if someone has never used a rig and doesn't like it, then who cares?
Personally I would recommend that the average weekend yachtie give anything other than mainstream rigs a wide berth. Not everyone falls into that category.
Sailors, and in particular the yacht club bar variety, are infamous for their erm...'strong opinions, loudly expressed', but advice without the benefit of personal experience is still just bilge discharge, however it's expressed. Nice of you to share though
If someone asks me if I like spaghetti, I'll say 'hell yeah, I love spaghetti'. I won't however, think someone a fool for eating fish and chips. If I were eating spaghetti, I wouldn't expect anyone to call me a zealous twat and wax lyrical over the innate superiority of steak and kidney pud.
But then you can't sail a steak and kidney pud, nor brag about it in the yacht club bar afterwards

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[MainlySteam]

Quod erat demonstrandum

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[jleaworthy]

John,

One of Nigel Irens designs visited the loch recently when we had the Classic Malts Yacht Rally. It was a handsome boat, the smaller of his two designs, and fitted with a standing lug sail which set beautifully. Both standing lug and dipping lug sails were very common in traditional working boats and are well proved, although the dipping lug, perhaps the most powerful sail of all, needed a strong (and brave) crew. The balanced lug was only ever used in small boats and canoes and I'm afraid my earlier comments on its unreefability still apply. I built one once for a yacht tender and tried my best but could not reef it satisfactorily although it worked fine otherwise.

Best wishes as you move on.

John



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[MainlySteam]

Thanks for the information John. On another note, the Classic Malts Rally looks very interesting - seen it covered in YW (think it was YW). Very nice scenery etc. A problem out here is that our coasts have very few refuges along quite long stretches of them, very few small towns to visit by sea, even fewer pubs to visit by sea, and worst of the lot no distilleries whatsoever.

John

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[richardandtracy]

Having read some of the other comments, I'm wondering if I'm classed as a 'Junk Rig Fanatic'. I hope not. To give an idea of why I adopted the rig, here are my reasons.

1) Cost.
2) I could make it easily.
3) Cost.
4) I can repair it on board.
5) Cost.
6) It does go up wind. Not well, but why the hurry? Does anybody actually like sailing up wind? If not, why not avoid it as much as possible by careful planning? To avoid getting embayed in Biscay, go half way across the Atlantic.
7) Cost.
8) There is nowhere in the world that doesn't have suitable materials to make repairs with. Not even Antarctica - OK, they may be hard to find there but any remains of human habitation will have suitable materials.
9) Cost.
10) It's so simple even I can understand it.
11) Cost.

Yes. You can see that the fact the rig is cheap weighs very heavily with me.

Everyone has their preferences. I like the 2CV, it is my ideal car - but I recognise that most people would hate it. I will only recommend it to those who have already considered it, and then try to give meaningful answers to questions they may have. I prefer preaching to the partially converted - it saves a lot of ear ache!

Regards

Richard.



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