Junk Rig

[serendipity]

Hi there, wondering how easy it would be (also financially viable) to replace Masthead Sloop Rig on a motor/sailer of 27ft L.O.A. to a Junk Rig. Appreciate any and all help.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Trevethan]

Try Sunbird Marine )I think) They are specialists in junk rigs...

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Sybarite]

Why on Earth would you want to do it? If you have a motor sailor you will be doing even less sailing with a junk rig.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[vyv_cox]

Cats and pigeons

Whenever I have made similar remarks, supporters of weird and wonderful rigs such as junk, crab claw, freedom, etc. have made their strong positive feelings known without delay. I held back for that reason, so I'm glad to see that you have jumped in first.

Vyv

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[richardandtracy]

Junk Rig.

Good thinking! Don't allow the moaning minnies dissuade you. If you've got as far as seriously thinking about it you must be aware of most of the advantages, so I won't bore you by repeating them.

First off, there really is no point in getting someone to do it for you. It'll cost too much and you'll wonder why you went to all the expense. If you do it as cheap as you can, it really won't cost you a fortune UNLESS you can't find a suitable mast. This is the most important bit to find. Don't go further than designing the rig until you have sourced the mast. Having to go to a timber importer and import a stick for you is a good way of throwing away bucket loads of money.

Secondly, are you prepared to cut one or two dirty great holes in your boat for the partners? If not, forget the whole idea now.

How good is your maths? Designing a rig takes a bit of concentrated effort, and while the maths isn't difficult there are quite a few calculations that need to be done. I've found the Hastler & McLeod book 'The Practical Junk Rig' too complex, and instead opted to use a little A5 book called 'The Chinese Junk Rig' [can't remember who by - it's published in California] - much simpler, less technical and more enthusiastic!

Do some research on your boat. Is it strong enough to take all the sailing loads through the cabin top (remember there will be a 5 to 10x load magnification factor depending on the amount of bury of the mast)? Is the hull strong enough?
All these can be reinforced but need to be considered.

Has your boat got reserve stability so that it can cope with a huge lump of timber sticking up from it?

Next. Making the rig..
Fittings.. Dead easy if you've got an angle grinder & arc welder. Steel's dirt cheap - especially if you can scrounge all the bits. Maybe £100 at the outside per mast.
Sail.. How expensive is a 35ft x 17ft tarpaulin for a truck? Get one of them. Fantastically strong, and will do you a few years until you decide on a material you prefer. There are those who use Tyvek building paper - I like the idea but haven't used it yet.
Mast. Yes, well, this isn't as bad as you'd expect. A week's work (40 hours or so) shaping the mast, then as long as you want for finishing it.

The really hard bit is getting the mast in the boat. Budget on a crane hire or extra timber for an A frame - and about 4 people to help for a day, maybe two.

Lashing the sail to the mast ain't simple & does take some time. But then you only do it once in a blue moon. Allow a day for this alone.

If you're a real cheapskate you'll be looking at a conversion cost of well under £1000, with spare fittings to sell to offset some of your costs.
One final thing, be aware it will almost certainly reduce the value of your boat - not everyone is very enlightened about junk rigs.

Regards

Richard.



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[richardandtracy]

Junk Rig book

Sorry, posted duff info about the book this afternoon, it's

'The Chinese Sailing Rig, Designing & Building Your Own'

by Derek Van Loan & Don Haggerty.
Published 1993 by Paradise Cay Publications, ISBN 0939837-18-8

Regards

Richard.


<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Sybarite]

Moaning minnies indeed!

Look at Michael Richey's Atlantic crossing times in the junk-rigged Jester (his last was 58 days but other crossings were longer) and that was not on a motor sailing hull. I would suggest you would only sail with wind aft of the beam and in a good blow to get going.

Also how do you heave-to with this rig?

John

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[MainlySteam]

While, as others are saying, I have no idea why one would want to destroy the sailing abilities of any modern rigged craft by revisiting antiquity except for the sake of being different, which is, of course, a valid reason of personal choice. If you are willing to face the issues of loss of stability without going to the expense of custom built light high modulus material mast (and assuming your vessel's existing rig is light ie built in the last 30 or so years), compensating the vessel's structure for the differing structural loads, loss of windward ability, experiments with achieving sailing balance, etc. then go for it. However, if one really wants to revisit history, at the cost of reduced performance, have you also considered the other possibilities such as lanteen sails (still in very common use in some areas of the world), large square rig (Kon Tiki crossed the Eastern Pacific with one)?

But if you are after a rig of satisfactory perfomance, rather than one that is different, then you should ask yourself why no one (apart from a very, very few) bothers building modern yachts with junk rigs.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Aramas]

It's always interesting to read the opinions of people who don't actually know anything about the subject. The same people probably still claim that multihulls don't go to windward
As I'm sure the initial poster is aware, the modern junk rig has been proven in use over the past 40 years, and provides adequate performance and unrivalled comfort and ease of use. Let the detractors wrestle their perverse headsails into their bags while bouncing around the fordeck on their knees. Whatever floats your boat.
To answer the original question, replacing the rig is a large task regardless of what rig is used. Get hold of Hasler/McLeod's Practical Junk Rig - it's out of print (Tiller books are doing a new printing soon), but you can get it through a library or order a second hand one on Amazon. It's indispensible. I also have the other book mentioned, and while it's interesting, I wouldn't really recommend it as a design source.
If you build a hollow birdsmouth wooden spar, or use an alloy mast (flagpoles are apparently quite good) then there's no reason why the rig should be any heavier than the original, and it will almost certainly be a lot shorter. If you keep the aspect ratio fairly low (not recommended) then you may even get an increase in stability.
All the required fittings are easy to make, and apart from a lot of rope and a few blocks (quite a few actually ) you can chuck away the chandler's catalogue.
As a previous poster mentioned, most of the difficulty is in attaching the mast to the boat, but it's not particularly hard.
The reason that there are very few production boats with junk rigs is that they are a niche market, and production design panders to the 'great unwashed'. The yachting industry is primarily driven by fashion, and is quite conservative by nature. Most production boats are really only designed for occasional weekend use by mostly somewhat-less-than-skillful owners anyway. If you want something special, then you have to have it built yourself. Many reputable boat designers offer the rig as an option on their cruising designs. Perhaps they don't know what they're talking about? I believe otherwise.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[vyv_cox]

Little wonder that you might choose a junk rig if you are in the habit of wrestling with jibs on the foredeck. You may like to know that there has been a step forward - roller furling was invented about 100 years ago but modern materials and design perfected it for reefing about 30 years ago. Many of us have these on our boats and they save considerable effort.

Mainsails have developed too. Some like furling types that work in a similar way to the foresail. Other, more enlightened sailors, keep the shape and performance of the mainsail but improve its functionality with single line reefing.

You are right in one respect - I have little direct experience of junk rigs. I have seen a few when overtaking them. I never admired their appearance.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[MainlySteam]

Wow, I see what Vyv means. You sure are an evangelical community. Not much point continuing this if you think everyone else, including virtually all of the world's best modern boat designers, racers and cruisers don't know what they are talking about and are just part of the great unwashed.

I have nothing against junk rigs, people are entitled to make their own decisions. I trust that the original poster will make an informed one, unbedazzled by rheteric. I also trust, whether he chooses junk or not, that he will take balanced expert advice and make proper decisions as to what he will use for his rig's components - components he may be trusting his safety to. The laying of the junk disciple's hand on an aluminium flagpole does not make a mast.

People still choose gaff, square, etc rigs, but they seem to be far more responsibly driven by and admit to having a narrow or historical interest, rather than by perserverance of claims of the coming resurrection of their pet rig.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Hushinish]

I just bought an 80's 24ft cruiser, which has been converted to Junk Rig. I haven't got it in the water yet, still many jobs to finish, but as I read about Junk Rigged cruisers, I'm warming to the idea. There is the 26ft Proctor made aluminium mast which is unstayed, what is all this talk of tree trunks? It is easily raised and lowered by means of a winch and a 6ft alloy pole, it takes a couple of minutes by one person. Then there is the safety aspect, of a completely uncluttered fore and side decks, and all lines led aft on the coachroof. The sail is reefed in seconds or even lowered completely singlehandedly without leaving the cockpit.

I have a test report of two coribees compared, one rigged with Junk 196 sq ft, the other Bermudan sloop 182 sq ft. The wind in the morning force 1 sea flat, . The Bermudan sailed at an av angle of 52 deg. to the wind while the Junk bettered this with 44 deg. As the wind increased, the Junk lost the advantage and sailed 60 deg port tack and 50 to stb.
Beam reach , the Junk was fas ter on both tacks until the wind increased and the boats where equally matched. Guess who won running with the wind?

Your guess is as good as mine because page 2 is missing!!!



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[paulcooper]

I have always wanted to do the same as back in the 50s I worked in Hong Kong and sailed the real thing also the little sampans with junk sails and have happy memories of gentle cruising in warm waters. I even used to know the names of the rig parts in Cantonese but of no earthly use and long forgotten.

Back in the UK and several years ago I intended to convert my Cox motor sailer to junk rig but the cost was too much at the time and now advancing years and ill health prevent me going ahead. I did buy the book Practical Junk Rig, Design, Aerodynamics & Handling by Hasle & Mc Leod which cost me at the time £49.95.

I still have it and would be prepared to pass it on for around £15 it is quite heavy and the price would include post and packing. It is in pristine condition, Let me
know if you are interested.

Good Luck.

Paul Cooper.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[pwfl]

see www.thomasecolvin.com for info on ordering his book on designing & making your own junk rig & sails + other info on junk rigs.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[jleaworthy]

Although I have owned and sailed a junk rig yacht for the last three years all the rest of mysailing has been in bermudian rigged boats - in fact I've just come back from Greece where I chartered a 'normal' yacht.

I suppose the great thing about junk is lack of stress, to the boat, to the rig and, not least, to a short handed crew. Of course they won't win races to windward against a bermudian but, hands on hearts, how many short handed cruising types thrash their boats to windward anyway rather than use their engines? The truth is that most cruising rigs trade off windward performance against greater safety and comfort - rolling reefing genoas, in mast mainsail reefing and so on. Unfortunately these modern 'improvements' (including single line reefing of the main), when they fail, can give rise to a dangerous situation eg system jammed with too much sail up. In other words they fail dangerous. The junk, on the other hand, if it fails, fails safe. The worst than can happen would be the halliard failing; in which case the sail self stows itself in the easy jacks.

Some have commented on stability and rig safety. Junk masts may have failed, although I don't know of any. On the other hand there are recorded incidents of many bermudians which have lost their masts not usually because of any fault in the mast but because of the failure of one of the dozens of components which make up the standing rigging. The junk's unstayed mast has no standing rigging. It's compression load of sail weight and halliard tension is normally of the order of 200 kilos whereas a bermudian mast, and the boat beneath it, commonly suffers compression loads approximately the same as the weight of the boat!! As for stability, reefing the junk is a matter of a few seconds work and lowers the admittedly heavy sail part way down the mast so improving stability as the wind increases.

I have no desire to convert, after all I made a good living for many years teaching people how best to sail a bermudian rig, but I would hate to see interested folk put off from trying a safe and easy cruising rig by ill informed criticism.

And one last word. Because the junk's mast is further forward I can carry an inflated dinghy on the coach roof between mast and spray hood even on a 26' yacht - an unexpected bonus but a very useful one.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Aramas]

Colvin's approach to junk rig design is quite different from that of Hasler/McLeod, which seems to be the preferred approach.
I'm not actually a 'junk advocate', although they do have their place. Anyone that considers sailing a sport is not going to like junk rigs. Ever. 'Overthere' sailors (ie 'I want to go over there') will find that it does the job with less fuss than anything else available.
Roller reefing is almost universally pooh-poohed by serious cruisers, or serious racers for that matter. Far from being 'perfected', roller furling is fiendishly expensive, unreliable and incapable of setting a sail well. The roller reefing gear alone would cost almost as much as an entire junk rig on the same boat.
I'm all for diversity, and since 'off the shelf' bermudan rigs are as common as dirt, I'm happy to point out that some other horses might be better suited to a particular course. Some people like micro-managing, and would be bored out of their mind without half a dozen sails to fiddle with. Others resent having to get off their bum to fetch another beer. The sporty types are always trying to squeeze out another tenth of a knot, and one-up the next guy. Personally I don't see anything wrong with any of those approaches. Sailing is a personal thing, with as many motives as there are sailors. The dissapointing aspect of the argument is that many adherents of the 'default' option seem to think that they're terribly clever by slavishly adopting whatever is touted in mainstream sailing magazines, and that anyone who disagrees is not only a fool, but a heretic.
Vive le difference.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[spark]

I had an interesting conversation recently with a sailmaker who is also a seriously competitve salior. His words: "the bermudan is such an inefficient rig". I had to agree with him.

A bermudan rig, well-tuned and with newish sails, properly set is pretty good for windward sailing but little else. It becomes increasingly less attractive the further off the wind that you go. Running before the wind with a bermudan rig is a pain in the neck.

The man has a motor-sailer. His diesel donkey will be doing all of the upwind work much more efficiently than any set of sails so I reckon he's looking for a rig that will work well on anything beyond a broad reach and is easy to handle. I can well understand why he's looking at alternatives to bermudan.


<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.qei.co.uk/spark>http://www.qei.co.uk/spark</A>

 

[spark]

I've always thought that a bermudan rig on a motor-sailer is a waste of time. You'll be using the engine to windward and need a rig that's handy for reaching/running.

Never sailed a junk rig but have been on board Jock Macleod's 'Ron Glas' (Hasler's collaborator) and was impressed by the lack of clutter.

I have sailed lots of gaffers and luggers and would recommend a dipping lug for sheer power but a balanced lug for simplicity and ease of use. Use the halyard as a windward support for the mast. Rig a 'running' stay on the other side if you want to be able to go about. The only other bit of string you need is a sheet. Probably cheaper and quicker to set up than a junk rig.


<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.qei.co.uk/spark>http://www.qei.co.uk/spark</A>

 

[ean_p]

Have a friend that has a Junk and its a great rig for people who want to point and go...though if its up wind then the 'go' may be slow....his can adequately make 110 degrees throu' tacks and down wind it can be a demon.....but for me it lacks a certain bite....bit like a good veggie curry....its ok but you know there's something missin'..... but when I'm in my 60's it'll sure interest me...and its getting better every day as I hear they have curved battens etc to increase windward performance and all the rest.......if you fancy it give it a go.....as to roller reefing been shuned by 'real cruisers'.....yeah ok!!!......enjoy your wet back......

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[MainlySteam]

Hi Spark, thanks for the rebuttal! I respect your views, however, I assume that your racing sailmaker would not think that IACC yachts will be changing to junk rigs anytime soon because bermudan rig is inefficient.

The original poster has elsewhere stated that they are inexperienced sailors and the fringe was giving advice as if junk was the ultimate rig for all events and there were no sensible alternatives. As we have both pointed out there are alternative rigs, but I guess, in the end if one does not like the trouble of sails that much, then why choose a boat with them at all.

You are building a beautiful boat with beautiful workmanship (I have peeks on your internet site from time to time, since it was brought to my attention around a year ago), and you understand all small vessels are compromises and understand the particular compromises of your own undertaking. You also understand all of the joys you will get from building and sailing it having made those informed choices. You probably understand that it will not all be pure joy.

I do not think that the original poster is in the same position of being able to make such informed decisions and is therefore entitled to balanced advice. In those circumstances, to do otherwise, as the junk fringe was doing, is an abuse more befitting used car salesmen and is, in fact, an indication of the naivety of their own positions.

By the way, 2 junk rigged boats sailed from here (Wellington, NZ) a month or so ago for a cruise in the Pacific. Unfortunately, I did not get to see them, but I have seen photographs of them. Both were around 12m, one 3 masted (small mizzen, if that is the correct term on a junk) and the other a taller two masted rig (foremast shorter like schooner) probably much more lug like than junk. One has a hull trending towards the traditional junk and, well, looks like a reincarnated junk. The other hull, with the taller rig, appears a conventional hull and it would be interesting to know how its rig peforms - I suspect quite well, especially in trade wind type conditions.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>