JSDs and wind vanes

[Fascadale]

I’ve recently watched a YouTube in which a JSD is deployed from a yacht in heavy weather

Unfortunately the vessel’s wind vane is badly damaged by the drogue’s bridle

My own boat, a Rival 34 has a fairly narrow stern with an Aries attached.

Any comments, advice, warnings, particularly from anyone who has used a JSD in combination with a wind vane would be very welcome

Here is the video, the damage to the vane is at the very end

 

[AndrewB]

That video brings back memories. I too had an Aries on a narrow-sterned steel Roberts 38. I had a 70m warp with a chain end for big seas which was gradually being converting to a series drogue, though I never finished the full length. Nevertheless, even partially complete it worked effectively . There was no bridle. The drogue was deployed on the starboard side attached to the main winch, which was needed for retrieval. It was on the starboard side because on the port side was a trailed generator, which also helped to steady the boat.

The drogue ran well clear of the Aries via a stern fairlead and I can't recall ever snagging it, though admittedly it was a concern. I fitted one of the late-model breakaway joints (effectively, two discs which clamped together) which would have allowed the Aries blade to fold clear had there been excess pressure on it.

 

[Poey50]

Morgan's Cloud website (paywall) proposes a solution to this which is said to be especially a problem if using dyneema. I copied it and bought round fibreglass battens (10mm diameter) which have loops of dyneema line attached at the end, through which the arms of the bridle pass. When the JSD is deployed the battens on each side are extended out by a few feet from their usual place lashed to the base of the stanchions. This is said to prevent a stray loop of the light bridle flicking back under the windvane rudder and destroying it when the JSD next goes tight. I'm not aware of anyone using the method in anger but it sounds a logical solution. The alternative would be to heave-to and try to raise our Windpilot rudder but that's far from guaranteed.

 

[Fascadale]

That video brings back memories. I too had an Aries on a narrow-sterned steel Roberts 38. I had a 70m warp with a chain end for big seas which was gradually being converting to a series drogue, though I never finished the full length. Nevertheless, even partially complete it worked effectively . There was no bridle. The drogue was deployed on the starboard side attached to the main winch, which was needed for retrieval. It was on the starboard side because on the port side was a trailed generator, which also helped to steady the boat.

The drogue ran well clear of the Aries via a stern fairlead and I can't recall ever snagging it, though admittedly it was a concern. I fitted one of the late-model breakaway joints (effectively, two discs which clamped together) which would have allowed the Aries blade to fold clear had there been excess pressure on it.

Thank you for this...........with your drogue line running from only one fair lead can you recall what sort of angle your vessel lay to the following waves? Did you have to do much steering to keep her running straight?

 

[Fascadale]

Morgan's Cloud website (paywall) proposes a solution to this which is said to be especially a problem if using dyneema. I copied it and bought round fibreglass battens (10mm diameter) which have loops of dyneema line attached at the end, through which the arms of the bridle pass. When the JSD is deployed the battens on each side are extended out by a few feet from their usual place lashed to the base of the stanchions. This is said to prevent a stray loop of the light bridle flicking back under the windvane rudder and destroying it when the JSD next goes tight. I'm not aware of anyone using the method in anger but it sounds a logical solution. The alternative would be to heave-to and try to raise our Windpilot rudder but that's far from guaranteed.

Interesting

Just to clarify: is what is being suggested a rigid or semi rigid method of extending the bridles to clear the vane?
I’m not sure about the practicalities but the idea of having the first couple of meters of the bridle kept straight may be the answer.

Like your Windoilot, raising the Aries is theoretically possible but not something I think I could do on a violently moving boat.

 

[Poey50]

Interesting

Just to clarify: is what is being suggested a rigid or semi rigid method of extending the bridles to clear the vane?
I’m not sure about the practicalities but the idea of having the first couple of meters of the bridle kept straight may be the answer.

Like your Windoilot, raising the Aries is theoretically possible but not something I think I could do on a violently moving boat.

There's no change to the bridle arrangement. The two battens each have a loop on the end through which the arms of the bridle pass. (The arms are not attached to the loops, which function only as extendable fairleads.) When not deployed the aft end of the battens is level with the transom and lashed to the base of the stanchions. After the JSD is deployed the battens are extended by 4-5 feet so that the loops at the end of the battens inhibit how far forward the momentarily slack JSD can loop. When the JSD is fully tensioned the battens simply conform to the direction of pull of the bridle arms.

 

[Fascadale]

There's no change to the bridle arrangement. The two battens each have a loop on the end through which the arms of the bridle pass. (The arms are not attached to the loops, which function only as extendable fairleads.) When not deployed the aft end of the battens is level with the transom and lashed to the base of the stanchions. After the JSD is deployed the battens are extended by 4-5 feet so that the loops at the end of the battens inhibit how far forward the momentarily slack JSD can loop. When the JSD is fully tensioned the battens simply conform to the direction of pull of the bridle arms.

Thanks.......sounds an idea worth pursuing.

I had been thinking of a variant to that: running the bridle through semi rigid blue plastic water pipe but I don’t have a deployment solution yet

The semi rigid “extending fair lead” sounds much easier to deploy

 

[AndrewB]

Thank you for this...........with your drogue line running from only one fair lead can you recall what sort of angle your vessel lay to the following waves? Did you have to do much steering to keep her running straight?

Of course, the drogue holds the yacht to a downwind course, but I do not recall having it on one side produced any noticeable bias to the steering. I have to admit my 'hands-on' experience in those conditions was practically nil, but if there was bias the Aries had no difficulty compensating. Don't forget the drogue was seven times longer than the yacht itself and in big seas would anyway work from side to side.

The stronger the wind, the better the Aries gets at steering, and depending on the conditions it wasn't always necessary to sail dead downwind. I could set courses within 30 degrees of downwind.

P.S. While it felt so much steadier and safer with the drogue out, it can result in waves breaking over the back of the boat and on one occasion I was badly pooped by a huge breaker. However, that is far preferable to broaching and being rolled.

P.P.S. While the 'extending fairlead' idea sounds good, if you sail shorthanded don't commit to any system that involves leaving the cockpit or working with both hands in the sort of conditions that need a drogue. After my first attempt to lay out a sea anchor from the bow, as recommended by the Pardeys, I never tried again.

 

[Poey50]

While the 'extending fairlead' idea sounds good, if you sail shorthanded don't commit to any system that involves leaving the cockpit or working with both hands in the sort of conditions that need a drogue.

Yes, good point. With an aft cockpit then deployment from the cockpit shouldn't be a problem but some design effort to be able to do so with one hand sounds worthwhile. Once the drogue is deployed then that should gain a bit more stability to extend the battens (give or take a pooping wave).

 

[Fascadale]

Poey50 and AndrewB, thanks, interesting suggestions and good advice. Particularly from those who have actually used drogues

 

[Poey50]

Poey50 and AndrewB, thanks, interesting suggestions and good advice. Particularly from those who have actually used drogues

Just to clarify, I've spent a lot of time researching and making the drogue, attachment points and recovery system but haven't yet used one. I'll be happy never to do so!

 

[Daydream believer]

Interesting

Just to clarify: is what is being suggested a rigid or semi rigid method of extending the bridles to clear the vane?
I’m not sure about the practicalities but the idea of having the first couple of meters of the bridle kept straight may be the answer.

Like your Windoilot, raising the Aries is theoretically possible but not something I think I could do on a violently moving boat.

My Aeries is a Franklin lift up model & can be raised well clear of the water. Heavier than the standard, but convenient to haul aboard if repair is required