JET-DRIVES

[hlb]

Well. Thats what Burgundyben said init. Just a bit more colourfully!! The idea of taking an old knackered enourmous wooden boat and then spending massive amounts on engines and strange jet thingies does sound a bit pointless. It would be much easier and cheaper to just buy a new boat!!

<hr width=100% size=1> <font color=blue>No one can force me to come here.<font color=red> I'm a volunteer!!.<font color=blue>

Haydn

 

[jfm]

Re: for the record.....

A spineless reply Gludy

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[Gludy]

Re: for the record.....

JFM

I am finding your attitude to this beyond belief.

My original comment was meant as a light hearted play on the word shafted and it had a smile after it. I repeat it here:-

"There is a certain amount of old stick in the muds on this forum who cannot imagine life without being 'shafted' "

The fact you took such a light remark so seriously was to totally misunderstand the manner in which it was given.

If you wish me to take issue with you technically on props V jets then I am ready to do so. I thought the subject had been all but exhausted on the forum.

For the record I myself am a chartered engineer and have post graduate degrees from British Universities - however that does not prove a thing - what matters and what only matters is the truthfulness of the points being discussed.

So please lighten up .. I have never managed to be called spineless before ... I am fairly well known for fighting my corner

My other message on this thread was an attempt to again lighten up the colourful treatment of someone who was just asking questions ... something that has to be good.

If I do not know ... I ask. That does not make me a fool. The fool is the one who is too scared to ask.






<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[hlb]

Re: for the record.....

I fink JFM was aving you on and expected chapter and verse on the pro's of jet drives. You let im down miserably......../forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

<hr width=100% size=1> <font color=blue>No one can force me to come here.<font color=red> I'm a volunteer!!.<font color=blue>

Haydn

 

[Gludy]

Re: for the record.....

So sorry ... hate letting anyone down...

All he has to do to get it going is :-

"They hold the highest engineering qualifications in the land"
Name the qualifications.

" from the most prestigious engineering institutions in the world"
Name the institutions.

"question some claims about jets on sound engineering principles"
List the objections to jets along with their sound engineering principles!

Then he can have nice debate





<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[hlb]

Re: for the record.....

Well. I was an expert fruit and potato merchant once and did get my learner swimming certificate if that helps. Anyway JFM must be right, he's a solicitor!!

<hr width=100% size=1> <font color=blue>No one can force me to come here.<font color=red> I'm a volunteer!!.<font color=blue>

Haydn

 

[EME]

Re: for the record.....

Bolleaux, I never gave you a 25 meter swimming certificate and since when have they had anything but spuds in Lincolnshire? Hope you enjoyed your cruise.

P.S. Gludy/JFM, this will be really disappointing if your relevant technical qualifications are OND Metalwork from the local tech college... go on go for it !!

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=blue>I am WHAT I say I am</font color=blue>

 

[jfm]

JFM gorging on humble pie

Gludy:
I apologise for name calling, and if I misunderstood. I thought - and happy to be corrected if I got it wrong - your original post contained a degree of "put down others' comments by implying they're luddites/stuck in muds", which I responded to with some bolx about high-end engineering. I then thought (again, happy to be corrected) you replied in a classic (spineless) blame-deflecting manner by pretending your original post was a trap and stupid ol' me had fallen for it hook-line-sinker.

Anyway, no problem, I apologise if I got it wrong. Soemtimes it's hard to figure what people say/mean in the quick "tennis" of hasty posts. Back to boats!

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[Gludy]

Re: JFM gorging on humble pie

No problem JFM.

My original comment was meant as a passing funny about those on props enjoying being shafted. It was meant as a light hearted jibe. As it happens of course my latest boat has props ... although I do wish it had jets

There is a traditional vain in the forum that tends to resist change ... I do find it difficult to stop making the occasional jibe at that conservatism. .. however they are just jibes and usually have a smile with them.

I really can hold my own in a debate and I always learn from them. If anything I prefer to be wrong because I learn more that way. Who is right has never worried me - what is right always has.

I very much admire the Cara boat and the company that had the guts to go to jets on a 60 foot boat. Yes, I am convinced that overall they are better than props for sea going cruising power boats. No one has ever succesfully countered the technical arguments that were put forward in support of jets in the big debate.

On my last boat I had a new bow and stern thruster fitted and now having had experience of the boat I am mighty glad I did. There can be situations in Marinas where others are being blown towards you etc and you need to get out of the way - thats easy now. So I am basically in support of anything that makes boat control easier.






<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[Jerbro]

Welcome to the forum. I don't claim to know anything about jet drives but the following may help...

o The Sunseeker Renegade is a 60 ft fibre glass boat on twin jet drives
o Clarkes boat works in Portland custom made a charter fishing vessel with twin jet drives (you can see it in Weymouth - it's called 'One for his Knob')
o They go backwards by moving deflectors in front of the jet to direct it forwards (like reverse thrust on a jet plane I suppose)



<hr width=100% size=1>Jerbro
====
Click here for <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.btinternet.com/~jerbro> My ex-boat pics</A>

 

[Freebee]

Welome to the forum, well the subject seems to have touched a nerve or two hereabouts!

I think you will need a substantial budget or backing and considerable stamina for a project such as this. However if you have these resources then why not! Such a project should not be entered into lightly it would be a great pity to see a viable hull end up as a hulk because you run out of cash and/or enthusiasm.

However done right and well the project could be a credit to you but I would think long and hard before commencing.



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[rich]

I think that says it all.

<hr width=100% size=1>rich )

 

[burgundyben]

"claims not to know much about the subject" - not true gludy, no where in his post did it say, 'I know nothing about this'.

Its obviously to any sane man a barking mad idea, he says second hand engines and gonna live on board so obviously not got huge house and endless piles of dosh which is what this proposed plan would take.

Seeking advice is fine and a good use of the forum, but to be thinking of a project like this with limited funds and starting from a position of extremely limited knowledge is barking, how could anyone come to the conclusion that water jets are the right way forwards with out knowing what makes them go backwards? (pun intended).

As it happens I am a fan of waterjets, but not in this application. Its likely to be a fine old boat, but I've on the Hamble all my life and have seen many similar pipe dream projects result in previously saveable boats being chopped up.

I defend my original post. Barking mad.

<hr width=100% size=1>Sod the Healey - I think I'll buy an E-Type.

 

[Gludy]

Yousay:-
"claims not to know much about the subject" - not true gludy, no where in his post did it say, 'I know nothing about this'.

I clearly stated that he claimed not to nknow much not nothing and his opening statement:-
"Please can anyone tell me where to find out more about jet-drives" means he is clearly asking to find out about jet drives
Supports my point!!!!

"Its obviously to any sane man a barking mad idea, he says second hand engines and gonna live on board so obviously not got huge house and endless piles of dosh which is what this proposed plan would take."

Whilst I have had my doubts from the outset about the project being viable I think it is colourful to call anyone who has such ideas 'insane'. Many folks take on all sorts of projects that to me are ridiculous but that does not make them insane!

The reason I objected to your colourful way of putting him down is because there is a tendency on this form to cast some to the dogs for savaging - I prefer a forum where ideas can be openly discussed without the person being ridiculed or personal insults scattered just because someone wants to fit jets to an old boat

If anything, I would reckon a sign of insanity maybe detected in the reaction of some to the word 'jet' on this forum!!!

"how could anyone come to the conclusion that water jets are the right way forwards with out knowing what makes them go backwards? "

He asked to find out - he had not reached the conclusion that water jets were the right way forward - he openly declared his ignorance of the subject and sought help.

"As it happens I am a fan of waterjets, but not in this application. Its likely to be a fine old boat, but I've on the Hamble all my life and have seen many similar pipe dream projects result in previously saveable boats being chopped up."

I very much doubt if the project is viable but to consider such a project is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Its so easy to discourage ideas - what is needed is sensible caution.

"I defend my original post. Barking mad. "

On that basis we are all barking mad including yourself ... now that may well be true - if I try to justify my power baot interests I have to conclude that I must be barking mad


<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[BoatlessinOslo]

Gludy, don't forget BB is an expert in knowing when people are "barking mad" when embarking on (viable?) projects

Hastily donning firebobbys kit and diving for cover!

<hr width=100% size=1>Why's that smoke coming out the hatch ?

 

[Gludy]

I back down in the presence of such overpowering expertise on being barking mad!!!



<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[MainlySteam]

Hi David. As has been suggested before, I would contact Hamilton here in New Zealand and take their advice.

My belief is that you will find that jets are not the most efficient way to power the vessel you are looking at - however, the trade offs, which may be big ones, may be worth it for any other important benefits you are looking for eg draft. Also, in case this is a concern, it will be very expensive. I am currently project managing the construction of two 75 foot water jet powered catamarans being built in Australia for a client around your side of the world. There are four water jets in each of those vessels and they are designed for jets. I have also helped another client sue the designer of two smaller water jet powered boats when they did not perform as expected (they were the designer's first boats of that sort) because of their weight - a factor which is very important to water jet performance. Take a lot of care in your decision, listen to Hamilton.

John

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[burgundyben]

Come on Gludy, reality check, bloke has limited funds, no knowledge of boats, less knowledge of water jets and starts pipe dreaming about daft project that is highly unlikely to fly (or float).

Those boats were built to last 4 years or 20 sorties, no more, now 50 odd years old, wood rotten and glue failing, one of the hamble boat yards tried to lift one out maybe 5 years ago and it just broke up, it could not support its own weight. It took 250k to restore 102.

Maybe my post was a bit 'newbie flamming' and a bit flippant but it was truthful and realistic.

But I am also so far the only person to direct him to the military power boat trust, this is where he'll get more usefull info than anywhere else about the boat.

You are just being over sensitive because jet drives are you little pet and you thought I was having a pop at that idea cos its been fashionable round here to do so.

In fact, like you I am a fan of water jets, esp in the right application and properly engineered, and his proposed project was going to reuslt in neither.




<hr width=100% size=1>Sod the Healey - I think I'll buy an E-Type.

 

[Gludy]

"Come on Gludy, reality check, bloke has limited funds, no knowledge of boats, less knowledge of water jets and starts pipe dreaming about daft project that is highly unlikely to fly (or float)."

At no time did I do other than suggest that the project would probably not be viable - in fact at no time did I think there was much chance of it going ahead.... so no reality check needed on that. In fact we are in agreement on its chances.

My point back to you was not to do with jets so I am not being sensitive about that.

It was all to do with the way, when someone asks some questions ... the Newbie Ghost Busters Arrive to rip them apart. The world needs more challanges not less - newbies who ask questions should not be hobbled for simply asking them .. asking a question is not barking mad!!!

"Maybe my post was a bit 'newbie flamming' and a bit flippant but it was truthful and realistic."

You don't do yourself justice .. it was totally Newbie flaming. As regards it being truthful - no it wasn't because he is not barking mad for asking questions about a subject he does not know about.

My response to him was to provide him with the information he asked for whilst telling him that I have my doubts about how viable it it.

I hold a fair few patents on products that are commerecially succesful. With my very first patent I was asked how much experience I had in the industry before I made the invention - the answer was none. I asked for a quote on machinary and was told that with their 30 years experience they thought I was mad because they knew it would not work - they refused to quote. I went on regardless and overcome what they told me was impossible to overcome. I have mentioned this because, whilst I really do think that the jet project has a cat in hells chance, its not my job to snipe or put anyone down. Answer the questions in a supportive manner , by all means state that you think it may not be viable but do not assume that this or that idea will not go ahead - humans can be very determined and you never know.... always keep the window of hope open.

So all my response to you was about is not jets but the way the newbie flame gun was applied. All the rest of your comments to me are just displacment behaviour as you try to wiggle out of it.

Cheers
Paul

<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[burgundyben]

Perhaps for a moment you could focus on something other than your own magnificent acheivements you'd be able to see the meaning and intention of my original post.

No displacement behaviour from me, I stuck to the subject matter...

Its a mad idea, destined to fail. Look at how many of these war time boats have been cut up and gone to waste cos as a project they cant find the resources to complete.

I went to the trubble to point him towards the only true source of knowledge for these boats, the Trust that saves them.

<hr width=100% size=1>Sod the Healey - I think I'll buy an E-Type.