Jessica Watson failed to notice ship at 1 mile

[VO5]

I think that in the middle of this confused rant you are actually agreeing with me. It was the duty of the OOW of the Silver Yang to take action to avoid a colllision and he failed to do so. Glad we agree on that. The stuff about significant course alteration and in ample time is all dealt with in Rule 8.

I also agree with you that if Ella's Pink Lady did not take effective action to avoid a collision when it became obvious that the helmsman of the Silver Yang was not going to do so then she bears some of the blame.

However, Rule 18 is unambiguous and states that (other conditions not applying, which they didn't AFAIK) a power driven vessel shall stay out of the way of a sailing vessel. The fact that you have sailed with captains who ignore this rule is scary and plays to the prejudice many on here have against so-called 'professional' seamen. If you ever find yourself in this position again I suggest you fill out a CHIRP report.

Are you sure you aren't related to DAKA?

- W

I am pleased the message is taking root.

The idea is that one does not fool around getting in the way of big ships in a hurry, sail or no sail.

Here is a little rhyme that makes the point:~

Piglet on thr railway line picking up stones,
Along comes an engine and breaks all piglet's bones.
"Oh !" ...says the piglet...."That's not fair...."
"Well"...says the engine...."I don't care".

 

[PilotWolf]

I am guessing that Captain does not want the ship zig zagging accross the ocean willy nilly (for cost / sleep reasons) so won't be looking to change course too much "just in case" - at least not for the small stuff.

Just trying to understand what's going on on the bridge.........say, Crew member on watch spots a light / yacht - after monitoring (visually / radar / whatever) thinks it might lead to a problem that would involve a course change - when is it normal that he contact an officer / captain for a 2nd opinion / authorisation to change course?............when he is 100% sure? or as soon as he thinks it might later lead to a course change? (accepting that he might turn out to be wrong...........and will therefore have woken the captain unneccesarily - for the 12th time ).

Underway I expect the OOW to make a decision based on the information available and deal with it - be that altering course and/or changing speed per the IRPCS.

The problems usually come when we are working - ie surveying - which puts us into the restricted in ability to manouvere category. We frequently tow multipe sets of gear up to 1/2 mile behind us. This makes life difficult as any course alteration can only be a few degrees at a time unless the gear is all recovered (to prevent tangling/damage) and this can take up to 30 minutes to do.

We always ensure that the correct dayshapes and/or lights are shown, securite messages are broadcast, notice to mariners issued and if appropiate then we ask to be included in local nav warnings - like Dover CG in the channel.

The problem comes (like with the yacht I mentioned above) when no one sees the lights/shapes and then does not answer the radio call or respond to sound signals.

My standing orders are that I am called if any vessel has a CPA of less than 1/2 mile at 20 minutes or 1 mile if passing astern when working and has not responded to attempts to contact them.

One recent incident with a pleasure boat involved him accussing me of confusing him because I was turning and he didn't know which side to pass! (We tend to turn in a bulb shape to avoid turning too sharply onto our next track).

W.

 

[bedouin]

I am pleased the message is taking root.

The idea is that one does not fool around getting in the way of big ships in a hurry, sail or no sail.

So the message you are trying to get across is that ships' officers now regard themselves as above the law and no longer feel in any way bound to follow the regulations. In another post someone was complaining why people seem to be down on the professionals - and your post gives the reason why.

There seems to be an increasing contempt for the rule of law in those very people who should be upholding the law. The increasingly common illegal activities of the police and politicians is obvious, and it seems that this also extends to OOWs as well.

There is not a single line in the colregs that would excuse an OOW for not giving way to a single yacht miles away from land or any other obstacle or hazard. And for anyone who pretends to talk for the profession to try to justify such behaviour brings the whole profession into disreput.

I am not excusing JW either, her actions were equally reckless and ill judged but at the end of the day she was stand on vessel; to try to shift the blame on to her on the grounds that "no one should expect a big ship to give way to a yacht" is pathetic.

 

[PilotWolf]

And for anyone who pretends to talk for the profession to try to justify such behaviour brings the whole profession into disreput.

Well he certainly isn't talking for this professional! And if anyone behaved like that in my company they would be sacked immediately.

I know of one Master who steamed for 16 hours to offload a crewmember he considered was dangerously incompetent! It nearly cost him his job too until he threatened to take the matter to the MCA and the company insurers.

Yes, yachts are a pain sometimes as are fishing boats but at the end of the day it doesn't take much to go around them!

W.

 

[VO5]

So the message you are trying to get across is that ships' officers now regard themselves as above the law and no longer feel in any way bound to follow the regulations. In another post someone was complaining why people seem to be down on the professionals - and your post gives the reason why.

There seems to be an increasing contempt for the rule of law in those very people who should be upholding the law. The increasingly common illegal activities of the police and politicians is obvious, and it seems that this also extends to OOWs as well.

There is not a single line in the colregs that would excuse an OOW for not giving way to a single yacht miles away from land or any other obstacle or hazard. And for anyone who pretends to talk for the profession to try to justify such behaviour brings the whole profession into disreput.

I am not excusing JW either, her actions were equally reckless and ill judged but at the end of the day she was stand on vessel; to try to shift the blame on to her on the grounds that "no one should expect a big ship to give way to a yacht" is pathetic.

I am not saying that at all. What I am saying, that obviously you have not understood that the rules are not cast in stone and are not intended to be.

The rules make provision for deck officers who are on the bridge who observe a vessel on a collision bearing (even if according to the rules their vessel has right of way) to excercise JUDGEMENT, which is what they are watchkeepers for, and to take action IN GOOD TIME and SIGNIFICANTLY so that a potential CLOSE QUARTERS SITUATION is AVOIDED so that RISK OF COLLISION IS ELIMINATED, is what I am saying.

That some Captains of big ships adopt HARD BOILED ATTITUDES to small craft that they percieve as obstacles is a separate comment, equal to other captains of big ships who are fastidious and circumspect in the extreme.

I hope and expect that this finally clarifies the matter.

 

[VO5]

Well he certainly isn't talking for this professional! And if anyone behaved like that in my company they would be sacked immediately.

I know of one Master who steamed for 16 hours to offload a crewmember he considered was dangerously incompetent! It nearly cost him his job too until he threatened to take the matter to the MCA and the company insurers.

Yes, yachts are a pain sometimes as are fishing boats but at the end of the day it doesn't take much to go around them!

W.

We are not talking about the profession here. We are talking about hard realities. They are two totally different things. We are talking about lives at sea, and not engaging on pointless theory or argument for the sake of it, or slavishly adhering to the rules, as if the rules...were able to do the reasoning and judgement that is required when a bearing, opening, closing or static is encountered as viewed from the bridge of a big ship, is the point I am making.

 

[webcraft]

So VO5

.

(Beduoin)There is not a single line in the colregs that would excuse an OOW for not giving way to a single yacht miles away from land or any other obstacle or hazard. And for anyone who pretends to talk for the profession to try to justify such behaviour brings the whole profession into disreput.

I am not excusing JW either, her actions were equally reckless and ill judged but at the end of the day she was stand on vessel; to try to shift the blame on to her on the grounds that "no one should expect a big ship to give way to a yacht" is pathetic.

(PilotWolf)Well he certainly isn't talking for this professional! And if anyone behaved like that in my company they would be sacked immediately.

You seem to be badly out of step with your fellow professionals - so far 100% of them on here have disagreed with you. That is a huge relief to this sailor - and will hopefully give you cause to reconsider your own attitude to the IRPCS.

- W

 

[bedouin]

I am not saying that at all. What I am saying, that obviously you have not understood that the rules are not cast in stone and are not intended to be.

The rules make provision for deck officers who are on the bridge who observe a vessel on a collision bearing (even if according to the rules their vessel has right of way) to excercise JUDGEMENT, which is what they are watchkeepers for, and to take action IN GOOD TIME and SIGNIFICANTLY so that a potential CLOSE QUARTERS SITUATION is AVOIDED so that RISK OF COLLISION IS ELIMINATED, is what I am saying.

I take it that in your opinion by colliding with the yacht, the OOW as exercising good judgment and taking action in good time to avoid the risk of collision? That seems a very strange position to take.

You seem to think that there is some provision in IRPCS that makes it acceptable for the OOW to stand on rather than give way, but you have not yet given an example.

IRPCS are not guidance, they are rules and they are backed up by law in this and most other countries. While the rules themselves acknowledge that there are cases where the circumstances of the situation requires acting other than in the way proscribed, none of those circumstances applies here.

In my view this is a 50/50 incident with both sides being signficantly to blame. Trying to excuse the OOW on the grounds of some imagined get-out clause in IPRCS does professional officers a disservice.

 

[PilotWolf]

We are not talking about the profession here. We are talking about hard realities. They are two totally different things. We are talking about lives at sea, and not engaging on pointless theory or argument for the sake of it, or slavishly adhering to the rules, as if the rules...were able to do the reasoning and judgement that is required when a bearing, opening, closing or static is encountered as viewed from the bridge of a big ship, is the point I am making.

Sorry but we are. You have given incidents you know of where masters and OOW have chosen to ignore the IPRCS.

I am trying (still) to make the point that it is the minority that behave this way and those that do are not supported by nor popular with their collegues.

If anyone behaves that way on any vessel which I work on I will have them removed at the soonest possible opportunity if I am the Master and I will relieve the Master of his command if he repeatedly carried out dangerous and illegal actions.

Out of interest how or why did you, as a professional, allow the Master to continue to behave in that manner?

W.

 

[VO5]

You have no idea....I have personally experienced incidents in which the whole crew to a man have been blind drunk on leaving port, with the exception of the master, the deck officers, the engineers, the donkeyman and sparks. Another problem at sea is alcohol. And this is a problem or was a problem across flags. So I have seen the lot. And I can tell you that I was the only deck officer in the fleet to be teetotal, not because I am a goody goody but because alcohol does not agree with me. Therefore my captains trusted me implicitly, but you have got to understand that a deck officer is in no position to overrule the old man and suddenly take command because he does not like or agree with what he does or does not do in command of his ship. So do not make silly comments.

 

[Refueler]

.
Surely anyone qualified to stand a watch on the bridge of a large merchant vessel should be capable of steering the vessel in compliance with the IRPCS? If I was the skipper I would be very annoyed if I was woken up every time my OOW saw another vessel on radar or visually; and if as in this case (allegedly) the other vessel was only acquired visually at a range of four miles then I hardly think there would be time to wake the Old Man and for him to get to the bridge in his dressing gown and slippers . . .

I really hope this isn't what was happening that night on the Silver Yang

- W

Every Ships Master puts in writing "Night Orders" as they are called. Each Deck Officer who stands a Bridge watch has to initial them as read and understood. They differ significantly Master to Master. Generally they cover when to call him, what limits to apply etc. They are legal words and can be used in courts.

Early in my seagoing career ... I was 3rd mate ... we had change of Master and he wrote up his Orders. They led to serious debate amongst us OOW's ... as he stated clearly that any vessel observed to port that did not appear to be altering course - to call him. There were various other unclear orders that clearly showed no trust in our abilitys. This was a new one to any of us - as we discussed what were the applicable limits etc. Ch.Mate said he would call him at a point where it was obvious that other vessel was not acting ... 2nd Mate said he might call earlier ... I said I would call him after 3 visual bearings as I was not in agreement with his orders and would make his life a misery !! I'm a nice guy actually !

Well Master and I were plainly headed for a confrontation ... which ended up with my telling him what a pr** he was ....
He was a nervous wreck and should never have been given Masters position of any ship. It developed into a Company affair and I was finally cleared and went on to better ships. He was hauled over the coals.

Ok - now lets look at what is normal. OOW is fully able to operate the vessel to avoid close 1/4's situations in whatever way necessary. But it is unspoken rule that engine speed is not changed without calling Master first ... OOW can round turn, alter course ... no problem.
It has to be remembered that Merchant Vessel is under commercial pressure to arrive at port to discharge cargo. Bulk carriers, Tankers and similar are at a significant disadvantage to other vessels as they often only earn money on a one-way journey and then a non-profit run in ballast ... this forces co's to instruct Masters to steam best.

I do not agree with VO5 statement about the green light ... and agree with Webcraft. But as I said earlier - an OOW would probably see that light as a faulty set of lights until he's checked over a period.
To those who think of a green light as purely a side-light - that is not correct. There are various vessels that carry a green light up the mast .... and there may be a time when it's shown without a white ... but very unusual.

 

[Refueler]

Don't be cheeky......I am explaining everything very clearly.

But unfortunately - I would not want you as OOW on my bridge. Not unless some of your points in this thread are a wind-up and not serious ?

 

[VO5]

I take it that in your opinion by colliding with the yacht, the OOW as exercising good judgment and taking action in good time to avoid the risk of collision? That seems a very strange position to take.

You seem to think that there is some provision in IRPCS that makes it acceptable for the OOW to stand on rather than give way, but you have not yet given an example.

IRPCS are not guidance, they are rules and they are backed up by law in this and most other countries. While the rules themselves acknowledge that there are cases where the circumstances of the situation requires acting other than in the way proscribed, none of those circumstances applies here.

In my view this is a 50/50 incident with both sides being signficantly to blame. Trying to excuse the OOW on the grounds of some imagined get-out clause in IPRCS does professional officers a disservice.

Now it is your turn....

Read carefully what I explain.

I am saying the opposite. I am saying that notwithstanding anything laid down as rules, the watchkeeper has the duty when percieving by observation that another vessel's bearing is not significantly altering, risk of collision must be deemed to exist. That is very clear, isn't it ?

The onus is now upon him to act irrespective of whether his is the stand on vessel or not. The object is to avoid a close quarters situation developing and the avoidance of risk of collision. THEREFORE the prudent and seamanlike action required is an alteration of course which must be SIGNIFICANT, meaning not 10 degrees, but MORE in order to change the bearing and clear the danger. Incidentally and as an adjunct, this action applies if there is sufficient sea room to do this, and if not, or for whatever other reason, then a reduction in speed, or in an extreme case stopping her would be the appropriate action to take, IN GOOD TIME ALSO. That is also very clear too, isn't it ?

 

[Refueler]

Underway I expect the OOW to make a decision based on the information available and deal with it - be that altering course and/or changing speed per the IRPCS.

The problems usually come when we are working - ie surveying - which puts us into the restricted in ability to manouvere category. We frequently tow multipe sets of gear up to 1/2 mile behind us. This makes life difficult as any course alteration can only be a few degrees at a time unless the gear is all recovered (to prevent tangling/damage) and this can take up to 30 minutes to do.

We always ensure that the correct dayshapes and/or lights are shown, securite messages are broadcast, notice to mariners issued and if appropiate then we ask to be included in local nav warnings - like Dover CG in the channel.

The problem comes (like with the yacht I mentioned above) when no one sees the lights/shapes and then does not answer the radio call or respond to sound signals.

My standing orders are that I am called if any vessel has a CPA of less than 1/2 mile at 20 minutes or 1 mile if passing astern when working and has not responded to attempts to contact them.

One recent incident with a pleasure boat involved him accussing me of confusing him because I was turning and he didn't know which side to pass! (We tend to turn in a bulb shape to avoid turning too sharply onto our next track).

W.

Try the Seismic world where we towed 2 gun strings + a seismic cable of 3 miles long .... That makes for some nervous moments !!

 

[VO5]

Every Ships Master puts in writing "Night Orders" as they are called. Each Deck Officer who stands a Bridge watch has to initial them as read and understood. They differ significantly Master to Master. Generally they cover when to call him, what limits to apply etc. They are legal words and can be used in courts.

Early in my seagoing career ... I was 3rd mate ... we had change of Master and he wrote up his Orders. They led to serious debate amongst us OOW's ... as he stated clearly that any vessel observed to port that did not appear to be altering course - to call him. There were various other unclear orders that clearly showed no trust in our abilitys. This was a new one to any of us - as we discussed what were the applicable limits etc. Ch.Mate said he would call him at a point where it was obvious that other vessel was not acting ... 2nd Mate said he might call earlier ... I said I would call him after 3 visual bearings as I was not in agreement with his orders and would make his life a misery !! I'm a nice guy actually !

Well Master and I were plainly headed for a confrontation ... which ended up with my telling him what a pr** he was ....
He was a nervous wreck and should never have been given Masters position of any ship. It developed into a Company affair and I was finally cleared and went on to better ships. He was hauled over the coals.

Ok - now lets look at what is normal. OOW is fully able to operate the vessel to avoid close 1/4's situations in whatever way necessary. But it is unspoken rule that engine speed is not changed without calling Master first ... OOW can round turn, alter course ... no problem.
It has to be remembered that Merchant Vessel is under commercial pressure to arrive at port to discharge cargo. Bulk carriers, Tankers and similar are at a significant disadvantage to other vessels as they often only earn money on a one-way journey and then a non-profit run in ballast ... this forces co's to instruct Masters to steam best.

I do not agree with VO5 statement about the green light ... and agree with Webcraft. But as I said earlier - an OOW would probably see that light as a faulty set of lights until he's checked over a period.
To those who think of a green light as purely a side-light - that is not correct. There are various vessels that carry a green light up the mast .... and there may be a time when it's shown without a white ... but very unusual.

Good, I agree with you because I have been in your shoes but not with every Captain. When I sailed as third my captains only required I call them if a reduction of speed was required, but then I was allowed to do the movement synchonously with calling them. All else was left to me because they trusted me because I proved that I could be trusted, is the key.

But you must concede that a green light to port on on a persistently steady bearing is unusual. Therefore because it is unusual the officer of the watch does not stand on the bridge staring at it, twiddling his thumbs and making an alteration of course of 10 degrees in the hope he will clear it. The object is to clear it, not to hope. Therefore as you know because you have been there too, action has to be taken in good time, and not at the last minute, and it must be significant, is what I am saying.

 

[Refueler]

You have no idea....I have personally experienced incidents in which the whole crew to a man have been blind drunk on leaving port, with the exception of the master, the deck officers, the engineers, the donkeyman and sparks. Another problem at sea is alcohol. And this is a problem or was a problem across flags. So I have seen the lot. And I can tell you that I was the only deck officer in the fleet to be teetotal, not because I am a goody goody but because alcohol does not agree with me. Therefore my captains trusted me implicitly, but you have got to understand that a deck officer is in no position to overrule the old man and suddenly take command because he does not like or agree with what he does or does not do in command of his ship. So do not make silly comments.

I have as OOW over-ruled the Master on bridge ... drifting of coast of Isle of Man in bad weather ... he 'Logged me" ... but my decision / action was upheld by DoTI ....

 

[Refueler]

I have a Yachtmaster Ocean Ticket that I have held since the 4th August 1971. I have thousands of miles under my belt. I have sailed extensively single handed.

I have served as a deck officer in the British Merchant Marine, because I was interested to get Big Ship Seagoing experience as well. I can tell you keeping a watch on a big ship in congested waters is invaluable experience for any yachtsman because you gain a dimension you would not otherwise experience by just sailing a yacht or even a motorboat.

Are you saying that you stood as OOW on a Merchant Ship based on a YM ticket or that you have a YM as addition to a MN Ticket ?

I agree with your statement about a dimension that average yottie will not experience ... a quick look at this picture as view from bridge of a 100,000 MT tanker shows ...

Now same ship from ahead .... and remember - if you cannot see the bridge windows - HE cannot see you and that you can also assumes radar unless scanner at significantly higher point - which unfortunately increases sea clutter !

Look at the distance I am ahead of the ship ... you cannot see any accoms !

 

[VO5]

I was never ever logged, even when I made urgent tactical decisions without asking permission. This was because all my captains trusted me. They did so because I insisted on having a firm grip on things always. A position was put on the chart every half hour on the dot. You may think this may be excessive...now read on.

I recall one incident in the Baltic Sea.

The Old Man had paid off and a new captain had taken command. We set off for Rotterdam outward bound from Gevle or Oxelosund in Sweden with a cargo of iron ore....

We had a chief officer that had been demoted from master to chief because he was an alcoholic.

Along comes teatime...

I go up to the bridge to relieve the chief so he could have his tea.

I ask, and I am told there is nothing to do....no ships...viz good...speed 14 knots...there will be an alteration of course, but not yet....

He walks out the door..

I look out of the wing of the bridge and I see something I don't like dead ahead....it just does not look right...a soupy horizon...

Immediately I fix the ships position. I check the radar, the depth and the heading...and alter course 135 degrees to port. I then call the the saloon...

The captain comes tearing up the steps alone...

I tell him the chief says we are here....ansd I say we are here...and we are 8 minutes from going ashore on a reef...

He pushes me aside, gets the binocs and looks...then he darts to the radar...and lets out a yell..to alter course.

I calmly reply I have done exactly that, and that the new course will clear the reef on an opening bearing...and that I did it without permission as there was no time.

The chief apperas on the bridge..the Old Man pushes him down the stairs and into his day cabin. There is a lot of shouting in there...

A few minutes later I am relieved by the chief, ashen faced he was.

As I go down the steps to my cabin, the Old Man calls me in..

The long and the short of this is that he, like the other captains who preceded him does not interfere with anything I do, and occasionally comes up to the bridge when we are at sea to smoke his pipe and chat to me, but in all other respects I am left to do my duty without interference.

 

[VO5]

Are you saying that you stood as OOW on a Merchant Ship based on a YM ticket or that you have a YM as addition to a MN Ticket ?

I agree with your statement about a dimension that average yottie will not experience ... a quick look at this picture as view from bridge of a 100,000 MT tanker shows ...

Now same ship from ahead .... and remember - if you cannot see the bridge windows - HE cannot see you and that you can also assumes radar unless scanner at significantly higher point - which unfortunately increases sea clutter !

Look at the distance I am ahead of the ship ... you cannot see any accoms !

I studied the Masters Home Trade course at the School of Navigation in Tower Hill in London additionally to the Yachtmaster Ocean Ticket.
I was not interested really in a sea career in the Merchant Navy so I did not pursue the MN exam steeplechase because my interest was specifically sailing yachts. But because my exam results were the best for the whole country for the year and at that time there was a shortage of deck officers for middle sea routes I was granted a dispensation by the Mercantile Marine Office / Board of Trade to sail as a deck officer on a Merchant Vessel, that is how I came to sail as third.

All these caveats you point out I am very well aware of as my perspective is amplified by having big ship experience.

I think any yachtsman who has the chance to go to sea in a big ship ought to do it if he can because it expands one's understanding beyond what most sailors aspire to or achieve.

Many yachtsmen are under the false impression that a big ship with powerful engines can turn on a sixpence and if they can see the ship it is not concievable they can not be seen. Thus there are many misconceptions held by amateur sailors resulting in this discussion going on and on.

 

[VO5]

Where is that by the way? Is it Milford ? Lower Thames ?