J 109 vs X 332

[youen]

Hi
What do you think of these boats,which one is the best built and the most suitable for cruising with a couple on board.What do youthink also about a Dehler 34 from 2002
Thanks
Youen

 

[Judders]

Apart from the fact that there is a growing book of 'J109 skippers do the funniest things' storries and the fact that they are rapidly becoming the BMW of the Solent, the storage aboard is woeful. I'd go for the X every time and there are far more options available with the X as well, but bare in mind I have never sailed either but watched both disapear over the horizon!

 

[dt4134]

I thought very seriously about buying an X-332 as a dual-purpose racing & cruising boat. I didn't in the end for other reasons but I'm still a great fan.

I chartered a couple, the one in better condition being from Hamble Point Yacht Charters. We were beating in the channel in F7 (in cruising mode) and I didn't feel uncomfortable. You do of course need to understand sail trim pretty well to manage a boat like that but if you're from a reasonable racing background it should be a doddle.

I crossed the J109 off my list at an earlier stage. That was not because I thought it wasn't a good cruiser racer. I'd say it looked as though it was more suitable for a less experienced cruising crew. It was just the price seemed unreasonably high. Someone said to me that you're buying into the ethos of the one design class and my thoughts were that I've got better things to spend my hard-earned money on.

I looked at the Dehler 34 too. I just felt it was less likely to be a successful racer, but that of course was just my opinion.

I think all three are available to charter from various companies around the Solent area so you could try chartering one of each in turn.

 

[FullCircle]

I know the owners of a J109, and they have asked to come cruising woith us next year on our SO35. There is not much headroom in the J109 and it is not a 'luxurious' fit out.

I have another friend with an X99 who has also found cruising not appealing as he has to move all the sailbags to get comfortable each night.

A Dehler 34 is a better Cruiser, with a bit of racing thrown in. I used to race a Dehler DB1/2 which is the hull base for the cruisers.

 

[photodog]

Have you looked at the new X34 or the Finngulf 33?

Or for something a bit more used how about the Elan 333?

For cruising I would go with the X34 or finngulf 33 if my budget would stretch, or if not I would include the Elan on the list, but like others have said the J is just too racy for me.... and not cheap..

 

[flaming]

I'd echo the comments on the Elan, it's a very good boat and a bit of a poisoned chalice for Elan, as its replacement, the 340, is hardly taking the race course by storm whilst 333s continue to win races. Indeed a 333 won its class at the windy IRC nationals in 2007. And that very 333 is currently for sale.
Given you are looking at 109s, it's possible that your budget might stretch to an Elan 37, which is also a very fine boat, if one that takes a little getting used to. Last I heard the old Quokka is still for sale, and at a very reasonable price.

If competitive racing is your thing it's getting harder and harder to argue with the number of J109s in the solent. And despite the "J109 owners do the funniest things" comments, which do have some merit, the standard at the sharp end of the fleet is very high, as the results of 109 sailors outside of the class bear out. Unless you did a little sailing in China this summer you're not going to step into the class and win straight away.
As a cruiser though..... It's a little bit on the spartan side.

The X will be just as capable of winning races on IRC, but lacks the regular large one design fleet and numbers are dwindling at the national champs. I think it's fair to say that X have never built a slow boat though. Also worth mentioning is that the X332 and the J109 have very different IRC ratings, an X332 typically about 0.980 and a 109 up around 1.030 in OD trim. so when racing outside the one design stuff it might be worth checking the state of the fleets.

The X34 (admitedly in the hands of an X works team) is currently winning its class in the Hamble winter series, although we're keeping them honest! And if you were judging on looks alone you'd probably buy two, it is gorgeous. (except when spending all day looking at it's bloody stern!)

The older Dehlers, if money will stretch the 36 is the one to have. Much more competitive than the 34 on IRC, since it was not a reworked IOR hull, but a new design, and also giving us a hard time in the winter series. Last time I was down at Hamble point there was one on the hard that had been there for a while, I think it was the ex works team boat - might be worth a cheeky offer? As a fast cruiser though the 34 is a fine boat.

Also worth a look might be the Dufour 34, whilst it has never really done much on the race course it is an excellent long legged fast cruiser, with more accomodation than either the 109 or the X332.

I sailed the Comet 33 recently, and I'd add that to the list, although I (at 6'3") found the interior lacking in headroom. It was an absolute joy to sail however.

 

[flaming]

Sorry, got carried away with racing talk, just noticed you were more interested in cruising suitability.

In that case I wouldn't buy either the X or the J, both of which have a reputation for good build quality btw, without sailing the Comet 33, Elan 333 and Dufour 34.

And for me it would come down to a choice between the X and the Dufour 34 or the Elan 333, buy any of those as a fast cruiser for a couple and I think you'd be happy.

If I was under 6 foot tall I'd add the Comet 33 to that list.

 

[youen]

Hi
Thank you for your help Have you heard anything about the building of the Dufour or Elan.The problem is I am looking for a fast performance cruiser easy to sail with 2 persons on board,between 33 and 36 feet The must be nice,seaworthy,well built my previous boat was a Swan 41.The budget maxi is around 130 000 EurosI want a category A CEE boat as I sail from South Brittany to Spain and I think Elan 333 is cat B
Many thanks for your help
Youen

 

[youen]

Dear Flaming
Can you tell me of which Dehler 34 and 36 you are speaking?How old are the design and who are the designer.
Thanks
Youen

 

[photodog]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Elan 333 is cat B

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a Cat A boat, even their 31 is a Cat A.....

Interior Build of a 333 is up to the best AWB standards, but not a swan!

The dufour is a really nice boat, very well balanced, one did the ARC last year.....

If you can run to 130k euros then you are getting into the Comet and Finngulf territory, I would highly recomend the Finngulf 33, and you really need to look at one carefully, It would be number one on my list if I had the money, is up to the Scandinavian build quality, is not too radical and would I think make a great offshore cruiser.

Have fun!

 

[flaming]

I don't know if the 333 is cat B, can only be a minor thing keeping it out of cat A, I would hapily take one offshore and I know people who have done fastnet campaigns in the boat.

I've just realised I've mixed up my Dehler 34s! A 34 from 2002 will be the later one, and of the same sort of hull shape as the 36. Examples of both 34s can be seen here.

Can't really help on the construction specifics, other than to say that I've been offshore in Elans and Dufours regularly in the last few years, and I have no issue with either.

 

[photodog]

Here is a review of the Finngulf 33....

33 review..

 

[FullCircle]

We travelled the length of the Wallet with a Finngulf 33. A beautiful boat indeed, ferom any angle, and sailed extremely well.

 

[ParaHandy]

"We travelled the length of the Wallet ..."
that wouldn't be very far ... erm ... even if i could get mine open

did see a family with 2 quite young kids in St Malo last year who were on a J109 and they seemed happy enough. I mention this simply because having bairns of that age on board can be a bit of a trial.

 

[andymcp]

Not that I am biased in any whatsoever, but the Elan sounds like a mighty fine option to me...... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Having now bought one we're still meeting people who have sailed one/owned one/chartered one and there seems to be pretty much universal praise. The interiors are definitely no Swan, but equally seem a bit above the norm for AWBs. Fine for shorthanded sailing, just reef early.

 

[Judders]

I've never sailed a 333 but they've sailed past me in the not to distant past... and I was on a Swan 53 at the time. A lot of the corps boats are 333s and the guys love them. The accomodation is far better than the J and I should think that the change will allow you to spec to your own tastes.

On the other hand, at least with a 109 you'll always know how much of it is you and how much is the handicapper.