Ive just purchased a Frans Maas Breeon

[Rudyraff]

Evening all
I've just bought a Frans Maas Breeon 36ft for £100!
Her condition is excellent and the quality of finish is quite exceptional.
The layout is perfect for me and she exudes character though there is one issue I need help with.
She has an iroko wooden hull with a steel frame surrounding it, the frame is now rusty (well she was built in 1962)and it looks like steel pins were inserted to hold the layers of iroko together as rust spots can be seen.
Does anybody have any ideas for combating this problem?

 

[Lobstrex]

A wooden boat for that low a price is setting off all sorts of alarm bells. Has it been recently surveyed?

 

[Wansworth]

Definately a question for a Dutch surveyor…….could be just a question of some rusting or a nightmare

 

[Bajansailor]

She has an iroko wooden hull with a steel frame surrounding it, the frame is now rusty (well she was built in 1962)and it looks like steel pins were inserted to hold the layers of iroko together as rust spots can be seen.

Rudy, can you take some photos showing how the iroko is attached to the steel, and post them on here please?

It sounds like the timber might have been riveted to the steel frames?

 

[AntarcticPilot]

The OP's description triggers words like "nail sick" in my mind - and that would require her to be completely refastened.

Useful old thread here: Nail sick.

 

[Freebee]

in one of your other threads you were told no such thing as a cheap boat.....I fear you did not listen...now you could be in a world pf pain but without photographs we cannot tell...

 

[JayDomK]

in one of your other threads you were told no such thing as a cheap boat.....I fear you did not listen...now you could be in a world pf pain but without photographs we cannot tell...

A cheap boat is not a judgment call. Maybe the OP wants to refurbish it and sell it for more.

 

[johnlilley]

Strip build vessels of that year were constructed using long strips of iroko (in this case) sometimes mahogany laid longitudinally one on top of the other, glued edge on edge and long steel nails driven from the top edge into the underlying two or three strips as the hull was gradually built up. The difficulty is that the glues used at that time broke down many years ago, water crept into the edges of each strip & got to the ferrous nails causing corrosion bleeding & eventual fastening failure. The nails are impossible to replace or access. British strip build used timber framing to attach the hull skin to but Dutch often used steel frames & steel structural floors ( supports across the top of the wooden keel to maintain the shape of the base of the hull & connect to the keel). These also rusted severely.. Not an easy repair and in many cases a few more years of useful life was given by totally sheathing the vessel in epoxy & glass cloth. However the hull would still require basic framing internally with supporting floors to maintain a degree of structural integrity. Not an inexpensive undertaking. Possibly get a surveyor's opinion but be prepared for issues, Also be aware that insurance might be a problem if you are required to have a survey for insurance.. Either spend a fortune or nothing at all, unfortunately there is possibly no in between unless you are able to to the work yourself. John Lilley

 

[Rudyraff]

Strip build vessels of that year were constructed using long strips of iroko (in this case) sometimes mahogany laid longitudinally one on top of the other, glued edge on edge and long steel nails driven from the top edge into the underlying two or three strips as the hull was gradually built up. The difficulty is that the glues used at that time broke down many years ago, water crept into the edges of each strip & got to the ferrous nails causing corrosion bleeding & eventual fastening failure. The nails are impossible to replace or access. British strip build used timber framing to attach the hull skin to but Dutch often used steel frames & steel structural floors ( supports across the top of the wooden keel to maintain the shape of the base of the hull & connect to the keel). These also rusted severely.. Not an easy repair and in many cases a few more years of useful life was given by totally sheathing the vessel in epoxy & glass cloth. However the hull would still require basic framing internally with supporting floors to maintain a degree of structural integrity. Not an inexpensive undertaking. Possibly get a surveyor's opinion but be prepared for issues, Also be aware that insurance might be a problem if you are required to have a survey for insurance.. Either spend a fortune or nothing at all, unfortunately there is possibly no in between unless you are able to to the work yourself. John Lilley

John thank you for ypur
in-depth answer, I like the idea of sheathing in epoxy and fibreglass. I'm a natural optimist so I know I'll find a way of fixing her myself.
She's the most beautiful craft I've ever seen and I must save her. The interior was built when attention to detail was paramount and the porcelain loo and wash basin are so elegant. I'm looking forward to living on her while repairing her. It'll be a labour of love!

 

[ChromeDome]

This?
Frans Maas Breeon 36 Ft For Sale, 11.02m, 1962

 

[AntarcticPilot]

John thank you for ypur
in-depth answer, I like the idea of sheathing in epoxy and fibreglass. I'm a natural optimist so I know I'll find a way of fixing her myself.
She's the most beautiful craft I've ever seen and I must save her. The interior was built when attention to detail was paramount and the porcelain loo and wash basin are so elegant. I'm looking forward to living on her while repairing her. It'll be a labour of love!

Be aware that sheathing is often only a way to put off the inevitable demise for a few years. It traps moisture in the wood, leading to rot. As @johnlilley says, it gives a FEW more years of life - it isn't a permanent fix.

I don't know the build method, but it may take major efforts to save her, and it may not be feasible. You really need advice from an expert wooden boat builder or surveyor - and be prepared to hear that she can't be saved with the resources at your disposal.

 

[DoubleEnder]

John Lilley is one of the most experienced surveyors in the country. His comments are worth serious consideration. "Either spend a fortune, or nothing at all"

It may be that the best/right thing to do is simply to sail her, gently, as she is, while you can.

Epoxy sheathing is not a trivial or cheap undertaking, and for it to work you'd need the timber of the hull & backbone to be very dry and very well prepared. That means considerable time in a dry building, running dehumidifiers. The cost of abrasives alone will be many times the purchase price. You may very well need to drop the ballast keel.....When it comes to applying the glass and resin, I do not think one person, even an experienced person, could do the job alone.
And even if the sheathing adheres well, you haven't sealed the wood (the inside surfaces are not sheathed) and the moisture content will creep back up. Sheathing might help extend her life a few years but only a few, and even that would cost a lot of money, take a lot of time.

I have undertaken a full yacht restoration myself. I was motivated, reasonably knowledgeable, well funded and had access to great people and facilities. It was a success and I was happy with the experience, but a big project like this is not to be underestimated.

 

[srm]

but a big project like this is not to be underestimated.

Very true.
When I was a lot younger and even more foolish I bought a 50ft decommissioned fishing boat. She had been built in 1914 without an engine. I had ideas of returning her to sail. Fortunately, I was able to run her as a work boat for a couple of years, which taught me a lot and helped realise that the project was well beyond my ability, experience and funding. It was only my second boat. Even better I was able to sell her for what I bought her for to someone with the funds and ability to give her a new lease of life.

 

[Bajansailor]

Very true.
When I was a lot younger and even more foolish I bought a 50ft decommissioned fishing boat. She had been built in 1914 without an engine. I had ideas of returning her to sail. Fortunately, I was able to run her as a work boat for a couple of years, which taught me a lot and helped realise that the project was well beyond my ability, experience and funding. It was only my second boat. Even better I was able to sell her for what I bought her for to someone with the funds and ability to give her a new lease of life.

I am reminded of the rebuilt Scottish Zulu fishing boat 'Violet' (originally built in 1911) who I met in Bequia 25 years ago - some years later I started a thread on this forum about her.
The Scottish Zulu 'Violet'

 

[srm]

I am reminded of the rebuilt Scottish Zulu fishing boat 'Violet' (originally built in 1911) who I met in Bequia 25 years ago - some years later I started a thread on this forum about her.
The Scottish Zulu 'Violet'

"Spray" was a small Zulu. The engine, a big Gardner, was well forward, ahead of the fish hold, with a long shaft as the lines aft were too fine to support the weight. I was told some earlier attempts of adding engines to Zulus in the normal space aft had resulted in damage or sinking in heavy weather.
She was, reputedly, the fastest boat in the Shetland fleet for her size.

 

[Bajansailor]

"Spray" was a small Zulu. The engine, a big Gardner, was well forward, ahead of the fish hold, with a long shaft as the lines aft were too fine to support the weight.

Excellent re how Spray had a new lease of life! Do you know where she is now?
If she is still going strong now, I am sure that she still has her Gardner - was it a 6LX?

 

[srm]

Excellent re how Spray had a new lease of life! Do you know where she is now?
If she is still going strong now, I am sure that she still has her Gardner - was it a 6LX?

The last I heard of her she was in Gibraltar "Spray of the Isles" but that was some years ago. However, it is almost 50 years since I sold her. All goggle comes up with now is a 1949 shipwreck.
I think it was a 6LX, they were prety much standard fit for the smaller boats in the Shetland fleet in the mid 70's.

 

[Motor Boat Man]

I have seen this Yacht recently at the Boatyard where I keep mine and can confirm it has a fair amount corrosion with the steel frames and the rivets have rotted out some of the planking in some areas.

Certainly going to be a long term and challenging restoration project!.

 

[Rudyraff]

Evening all
I've just bought a Frans Maas Breeon 36ft for £100!
Her condition is excellent and the quality of finish is quite exceptional.
The layout is perfect for me and she exudes character though there is one issue I need help with.
She has an iroko wooden hull with a steel frame surrounding it, the frame is now rusty (well she was built in 1962)and it looks like steel pins were inserted to hold the layers of iroko together as rust spots can be seen.
Does anybody have any ideas for combating this problem?

 

[Rudyraff]

Hello everyone
Thank you for your comments, but I've found light at the end of the tunnel. There's a book called 'Covering wooden boats with fibreglass ' which is the last word in saving hulls that maybe beyond help.
In his book he says Carvel hulled wooden boats take his method of epoxy glassing hulls can extend the life of hulls that are suffering from a miniscule amount of hull damage.
My yacht is really in excellent condition, the mast and rigging is pretty much new and cost the previous owner £15,000 to replace (Kevlar rigging and the mast, boom are brand new).
So she's got a future, if you want to check out my YouTube channel
'Sailing and Painting the World.
I'm a struggling artist who finds beauty in sailing, women and wine. This country is really going to the dogs so come and help me.
Rebuild a devine, special work of yacht art.
With a bit of positivity we can rebuild her.
If your near Southampton, come on down.
I'm at Drivers boatyard Princes Rd
All the best to you all