It's really getting boring of reading articles that older are better

Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

Is that what Moody are up to with their new DS?

I do feel that there is a lot of importance in the STIX number, so often manufactures are shy about publishing them.
 
Re: So what would you do if you were the magazine owner?

I suppose I come from an unusual situation - I recently launched my 29' longkeeled sloop. It was moulded in 1976 and only completed by a shipwright (and me !) in 2003. So it is a new boat - but a very traditional hull - and I could have got a new, modern 29' AWB for less money.
So why do it ?
I have always loved the shape and the lines (drawn-out folkboat). I like the balance and the feel of the tiller, I like the heel and the confidence it inspires as the weather worsens, I like the way it moves through the water, I like the wood interior, the ability to view out of windows as I do chartwork or eat at the table, the sea berths (but only for 3 !), the head room and the sense of security when I am single-handed.(usually !)
But - it does not have wide beam, double bunks under the cockpit, broad companionways, spacious electronic displays etc.
You pays yer money and....
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are better

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I would have a new boat any day over an old boat. For all the criticism thrown by some at new boats/designs, I suspect that many are a touch envious of those that happily shell out well over £100k for a new one and enjoy massive living space,

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My boat was built in 1977, I am not envious at all, in fact, I have plenty of living space on my 26ft boat, she has cost well under £100k, in fact much less.
[ QUOTE ]
no diesel/dampness/mouldy smells

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Me neither
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warm heating or aircon

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Me too
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flat screen telly, music system, electronics that all work

[/ QUOTE ]
tick
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no wires hanging from the ceiling

[/ QUOTE ]
tick
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fridges

[/ QUOTE ]
tick
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freezer

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Only if I turn the fridge down
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en-suite toilets and showers

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Why, is 8ft too far to walk in the morning? More holes in the hull, good thing?
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little maintenance

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A boat with little maintenance is a boat waiting to go wrong, maybe you meant less going wrong, new things still break, more so in fact while buying Asian quality junk.
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a warranty

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I fix it myself, I know it is done right, no squabbles over how much is their/my problem, I could buy a warranty insurance policy if it concerned me too much. On an older boat, most things are easier to get to, fix, or replace.
[ QUOTE ]
fast cruising

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Fast enough for what we do
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elecrtic winches

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why do you need elecrtric winches? Do you ever unplug your shore power?
[ QUOTE ]
silent reliable new engine

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silent, really? I have two reliable new engines, does that count?
[ QUOTE ]
more economical

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than what? If engines, I bet mine both running are more economical than yours, I also bet as auxiliaries, they give me far more manoeuvrability than yours too.
[ QUOTE ]
The list goes on

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Yes, and I bet I could still beat you comparing my 1977 26ft boat, congratulations on finding the thinnest argument ever on here.
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Oh and for the folks that think these soul less plastic boats with the "personality of a fridge get overwhelmed by a F6 10 miles off the coast, check out the World ARC and ARC for the number of these plastic things carrying people successfully throughout the world with little or no drama attributed directly to the design of the boat.

[/ QUOTE ]
And plenty of horror stories when keels rip off or rudders fall apart mid ocean, lightweight fittings not up for the job, cleats tearing out of decks, boats bending in the slings. At least with an older boat it has lasted the test of time and there is consolation in knowing that the fittings have lasted 30+ years through the 87 hurricane, and plenty of storms since..
[ QUOTE ]
Don't seem to see too many old boat designs in that list of ocean going travellers. Neither do I see old designs in any of the ocean going regattas, whom I am sure with money no object go for the best designs which as far as I can tell are a lot closer to a modern cruiser hull than anything wooden or from the 60's, 70's or 80's. Older is always better is just a plain load of b^ll**ks.

[/ QUOTE ]
Has it ever occoured that those with older boats may not need their hands held to cross the pond. Old boats are crossing daily, they just don’t make a song and dance about it. There is a new breed of sailors who can’t bear to accept the risk and take comfort in cruising in company. Not that this is a problem, but for many of us, being told what to do and when to sail and where to just doesn’t cut the mustard. If you need to be on a list to survive, good for you, but accept many of us don’t wish to be in the club and will turn left when everyone else is turning right, baah.
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

Full Circle is one of the good guys. Sometimes it can be hard to see the wood for the trees here.


surely you mean can't see the for wood for the sawdust
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

Having read all the comments about AWBs and Plastic Fantastics, some folks prejudices are showing.

It is now 40 years since I bought my big old boat, wood and having a 20 ton displacement. The hull was then 50 years old, but she got us safely back from Malta to Falmouth. She cost me the price of a good detached house then, but we loved every minute.

Now at the age of 70 I am very happy to have my small Beneteau, with decks that don't leak, fridge and hot water at all times. A larger and more comfortable saloon and everything we need at very little cost.

I do not want to spend all my time varnishing spars and all the other brightwork. Then renewing all the paint annually as it cannot stand the Med sun.

On a small income I can afford to maintain this modern boat and do not want any nasty surprises like osmosis treatment at 3 or 4 thousand pounds a go.
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are better

Good one... And to your final point.....no it obviously hasn't.

Please may I nominate you for the longest reply in (my) memory? nearly four screens worth...you do give value for money...and finally

Taking a boat from Costa del to Greece in June... anyone going from uk to med in May... I could manage a lift???
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

Interesting (lengthy and detailed) discussion of STIX HERE

It definitely indicates that length is the single largest factor in calculating the STIX number . . . among other things.

Cat A requires a STIX no. of 32+ - adequate to withstand up to a force 10 gale, with average waves of 7 m height and eventual wave heights of 14 m

Do you seriously want to be out in a Bav37 (Cat A Ocean, STIX 34.6) in that?

- W
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

This discussion reminds me of similar discussions in the 1970's. That time it concerned motorcycles, there was a wide chasm of opinion between British bikes and what was then called 'jap crap'. Personally I loved the way British bikes looked, they won the style stakes hands down. I owned a small BSA myself and felt great riding it. However I did get fed up of the oil leaks and break downs and being left at traffic lights by 'jap crap'. In the end I bought a Yamaha and loved it, altghough I would drool over the increasingly rarer British bikes I saw.

Today I love loooking at older sailing boats, they undoubtedly have class. However, would I buy one, probably not. I would buy a plastic fantastic and feel a little guilty over my choice, but not for long
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

[ QUOTE ]
Today I love loooking at older sailing boats, they undoubtedly have class. However, would I buy one, probably not. I would buy a plastic fantastic and feel a little guilty over my choice, but not for long

[/ QUOTE ] Fine, but hardly relevant to my post re. STIX numbers and Cat A Ocean ratings, which is what you have replied to /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I had an old British bike as well and could hardly trust it to get me ten miles down the road without breaking down. I have sailed a 35yr old fibreglass boat 10,000 miles with no problems whatsoever. I don't quite see the connection - old boats are fully functional and will often take more punishment than modern ones - not a claim you could really make for old British bikes.



- W
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

And not a claim you can make for new AWB's either......

I don't see any evidence that they have more problems than MABs, other than heresay and supposition on threads like this.... in fact my own experience is quite the reverse.....
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Today I love loooking at older sailing boats, they undoubtedly have class. However, would I buy one, probably not. I would buy a plastic fantastic and feel a little guilty over my choice, but not for long

[/ QUOTE ] Fine, but hardly relevant to my post re. STIX numbers and Cat A Ocean ratings, which is what you have replied to /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I had an old British bike as well and could hardly trust it to get me ten miles down the road without breaking down. I have sailed a 35yr old fibreglass boat 10,000 miles with no problems whatsoever. I don't quite see the connection - old boats are fully functional and will often take more punishment than modern ones - not a claim you could really make for old British bikes.



- W

[/ QUOTE ]

The debate about the suitability of the rather broad brush RCD cat A status as a tool to assess the offshore capabilities of a yacht is a slightly different one to the old vs new debate.

For my money it's not a simple as "old vs new" but rather about suitability for purpose. There are plenty of boats, old and new, that you wouldn't catch me offshore in.

And to all those who deride modern boats for being ugly - don't think all old from "old times" (when is that btw?) had the undeniable good looks of the folkboat, there are some absolute monstrosities from the early days of glassfibre.

And there are some people (me for example) who find some of the new boats stunning. For example, the quick Dufours have a really sleek and purposeful look and the IRC boats from the boards of Kerr and Mills are undeniably good looking.

Right, enough for now, must get some sleep before I go race a (modern) boat in a gale tomorrow!
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

[ QUOTE ]
Right, enough for now, must get some sleep before I go race a (modern) boat in a gale tomorrow!

[/ QUOTE ] Brave man - for the weather, not the modern boat!

Enjoy!

- W
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

Again, drawing for the automotive world, a cautionary thought on the RCD:

Ever since the introduction of the EuroNCAP crash tests, car manufacturers have been getting better at making cars that get a 5 star rating. To my mind, that doesn't necessarily mean they're safer overall - it just means that they perform well against the particular criteria that the stars get awarded for.

I wonder if the same is true of the RCD? Like many "target" oriented things these days, it's only natural for the manufacturer to try and do as well as possible in those areas that get him a good rating.

I'm not saying that makes modern boats "bad", just different. Some older boats may well have had serious shortcomings in some safety-critical areas but perhaps there aren't as many of those left sailing nowadays so those that are left are bound to have been the better ones?
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

In 1969 I saw a Nicholson 32 out of the water in Malta. Large areas of the gelcoat had simply disappeared, leaving areas of bare glass.

I was told that they had been advised by the hull moulders to just paint over it and not to worry about it.

I then visited the boat show and asked the Halmatic people what the problem with that boat was. They said that such a thing was impossible and flatly refused to believe me when I described what I had seen.

GRP was the new wonder material which would never need maintenance. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: So what would you do if you were the magazine owner?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Many of the 'old is best' brigade are effectively weekend 'sailing re-inactment' bods who are generally over hairy and like making longbows out of condemned bowsprits. They are also likely to be closet Morris dancers and sit on committees of Real Ale organisations. They would also rather spend ten years rebuilding some god forsaken hulk than actually going for a sail. Do you really want to listen to these people ? Most of us don't.

[/ QUOTE ] So that's what you call keeping an open mind?

Lots of people prefer older boats simply because they can afford them. Including refitting and re-engining our 35 year old 27ft 4-berth ocean passage maker has cost us around £20,000. New we could get - what exactly for that? A day boat.

For another 10K and a bit more work we could have gone up to 32ft - say a Nic32 or similar.

We met a few AWBs doing the Atlantic circuit in 2006/2007 . All were in boats of 38ft or more and had spent a lot of money on equipment over and above the basic boat. While £120K is peanuts to many of those posting here there are many more yachtsmen out there in older boats whose budget is much more constrained.

If I had a budget in the £120,000 range I would still not consider a new BenJenBav, but would still be looking at a (slightly older) higher quality and more robustly constructed vessel because I prefer a boat that I feel I can trust at sea to one designed with marina comfort foremost. (If you want both then you can double the above figure)

Horses for courses, but for quite a few of us the longevity of MAFBs is what has made our voyaging possible. If they appealed to everyone then they would be priced out of our reach, so keep buying the new Bavs.

If I was marina based and intended to spend most of my on-board time in the local marina with occasional day passages to other marinas then I would for sure consider a new AWB as they are excellent value for money for this type of 'sailing' - but then if I was that way inclined I might just buy a holiday chalet somewhere, or a caravan - less hassle and ongoing expense, and I could charter in warmer climes if I wanted to actually go sailing.

As for ocean voyaging in these boats - fill your boots. Take them round the world if you want, but be prepared for no decent sea berths, lack of handholds, slamming going to windward, a lack of ultimate stability and the tendency for spade rudders to drop off. (Most Atlantic abandonments in recent ARCs seem to have been newer vessels). This is not a criticism per se - it is just not what these boats were designed for, and giving them a CatA 'Ocean' rating discredits the RCD IMO.


- W

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Apologies. My response was largely tongue in cheek and I defy anyone not to respond like this after spending three days with the Old Gaffers .

I think the beautiful truth about boats is that we have such variety to choose from now, both old and new. This was not always the case. I think it is generally agreed that the new breed of boat is fantastic value for money, but as mentioned, the large numbers sold have also brought the price down of many older boats and created more availability for so many others.

I would guess that less than 5% of us cross oceans and seaworthiness is probably not an issue but levels of comfort both at sea and in a marina is where we make our personal choices.

Build quality seems to be another issue with the newer designs but I have an 35yr old long keeled glass boat that is lasting well – the hull that is ! Structurally probably yes – but cosmetically certainly not. If I came into money it would be a very tough call whether to buy a nice white boat or spend it updating my current one. Like most changes in life, some things I'd miss about the old but would be counterbalanced with the new.

I do think that older boats with long overhangs look pretty though.
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

[ QUOTE ]
Cat A requires a STIX no. of 32+ - adequate to withstand up to a force 10 gale, with average waves of 7 m height and eventual wave heights of 14 m

Do you seriously want to be out in a Bav37 (Cat A Ocean, STIX 34.6) in that?



[/ QUOTE ]

Would you want to be out in ANYTHING!!!!!!
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

[ QUOTE ]
William_H. You talk about your doubts of the lifespan of laminated hulls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Galadriel - I think he was talking about sandwich contruction. All boats are laminated.

I am inclined to agree with him, where builders have used this below the waterline. Either Malo or Halberg use a balsa sandwich now in the interests of better light weather performance. This would be a disaster if water ever did get in. If on a heavy grounding, the keel damaged the outer skin, you might not know about it until the inside was a mush.

As for the use of Aluminium rudder stocks as used on the Hanse - Surely that is asking for trouble with electrolosys?
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are better

Webcraft. Your reaction reads like "don't dare have a pop at my pride & joy or my way of boating". IMHO your reaction seems to suggest that you are against anyone who doesn't share your idea of what you think boating is all about. I read your profile and see you have a Albin Vega. Great boat. I always wanted one when I had an Arden 4 which I am sure you are familiar with given your location. I put hundreds of hours into that boat restoring it. Ended up on the dark side with an old mobo, then back to the same (long story) Arden 4, then to Spring 25 then to a Moody 30 and back to a mobo. Stayed with a mobo for a while now have an AWB. My point is that I enjoy any type of boat and don't have any prejudices on design, old, new, cheap or expensive. My opinion is pretty straightforward. Old doesn't mean better, nor does new necessarily mean better. For every argument for old there is a counter argument for new and vice versa. Surely it's all about what you think is best, for you what counts. I am sure we all agree that all we need is a boat, good weather, a few beers and.......and that's all really! Incidentally how many of the people posting on this thread have actually done an ocean crossing on the type of boat they are defending so vigorously?
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are better

[ QUOTE ]
when I had an Arden 4 which I am sure you are familiar with given your location. I put hundreds of hours into that boat restoring it. Ended up on the dark side with an old mobo

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty rubbish restoration job, maybe you should have left the mast on eh?
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are better

[ QUOTE ]
Webcraft. Your reaction reads like "don't dare have a pop at my pride & joy or my way of boating".

[/ QUOTE ] I suggest you look again - nothing of the sort was intended, neither were any of my posts taken that way by anyone else AFAIK. One of my comments specifically envisaged me buying a new Bavaria in a certain possible future time, where I said:

"Everyone will buy the boat they can afford for the type of sailing they aspire to. A new Bav kept permanently in the Canaries and used in the UK Winter as a mobile apartment for inter-island cruising would be very nice, and may be what happens at some point if finances permit, but at the moment I wouldn't be happy with one for the type of sailing we envisage over the next few years."

You also said [ QUOTE ]
Incidentally how many of the people posting on this thread have actually done an ocean crossing on the type of boat they are defending so vigorously?

[/ QUOTE ] Well, me for one . . . OK, not a whole ocean, but to the Canaries and back to Scotland via the Azores and Spain, so pretty much half an ocean and 6,000 miles of mostly offshore sailing.

- W
 
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