It's really getting boring of reading articles that older are better

Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

Older fibreglass boats definitely have an attraction to me.

Modern boats can get better performance from lighter weight and faster shapes but there is a trade off with less comfort of motion in a lighter boat. Certainly fractional rig design is far better than mast head and you tend to get more mast head rigs in older boats.

Many modern designs rely on sandwich construction to get more strength with less weight. I am yet to be convinced that sandwich will be good aftter 30 years likke clearly solid ployester glass is.

So I reckon there is far more value in an old boat than a new one unless you want a particular modern design performance boat.
olewill with his 26yo TS.
 
Re: So what would you do if you were the magazine owner?

[ QUOTE ]
Many of the 'old is best' brigade are effectively weekend 'sailing re-inactment' bods who are generally over hairy and like making longbows out of condemned bowsprits. They are also likely to be closet Morris dancers and sit on committees of Real Ale organisations. They would also rather spend ten years rebuilding some god forsaken hulk than actually going for a sail. Do you really want to listen to these people ? Most of us don't.

[/ QUOTE ] So that's what you call keeping an open mind?

Lots of people prefer older boats simply because they can afford them. Including refitting and re-engining our 35 year old 27ft 4-berth ocean passage maker has cost us around £20,000. New we could get - what exactly for that? A day boat.

For another 10K and a bit more work we could have gone up to 32ft - say a Nic32 or similar.

We met a few AWBs doing the Atlantic circuit in 2006/2007 . All were in boats of 38ft or more and had spent a lot of money on equipment over and above the basic boat. While £120K is peanuts to many of those posting here there are many more yachtsmen out there in older boats whose budget is much more constrained.

If I had a budget in the £120,000 range I would still not consider a new BenJenBav, but would still be looking at a (slightly older) higher quality and more robustly constructed vessel because I prefer a boat that I feel I can trust at sea to one designed with marina comfort foremost. (If you want both then you can double the above figure)

Horses for courses, but for quite a few of us the longevity of MAFBs is what has made our voyaging possible. If they appealed to everyone then they would be priced out of our reach, so keep buying the new Bavs.

If I was marina based and intended to spend most of my on-board time in the local marina with occasional day passages to other marinas then I would for sure consider a new AWB as they are excellent value for money for this type of 'sailing' - but then if I was that way inclined I might just buy a holiday chalet somewhere, or a caravan - less hassle and ongoing expense, and I could charter in warmer climes if I wanted to actually go sailing.

As for ocean voyaging in these boats - fill your boots. Take them round the world if you want, but be prepared for no decent sea berths, lack of handholds, slamming going to windward, a lack of ultimate stability and the tendency for spade rudders to drop off. (Most Atlantic abandonments in recent ARCs seem to have been newer vessels). This is not a criticism per se - it is just not what these boats were designed for, and giving them a CatA 'Ocean' rating discredits the RCD IMO.


- W
 
Re: So what would you do if you were the magazine owner?

I am fairly sure the reason for the change is that what people do with boats has changed. 'old' boats where always designed with an eye on storm survival and being independen't because before GPS and lots of marinas once you left harbour who new when you might find another one. Also with much less reliable radio and no epirbs calling for help was much more of a lucky dip. Sailing was also different, without big reliable engines if you went any distance when you got back was most unpredictable so voyages wher ether very local or you made sure to have lots of time. Modern boats enphasise accomadation and performance in light -mod weather, have a clear eye on the charter market and assume if a gale is brewing you will generally have had enough warning to get to shelter. They do this because they can and for most its is ideal. For those that whan traditional designs it meane either an old boat or a very limited chioce at VERY high prices, so we moan. I would love a new boat but nobody makes a suitable one and a custom job would be £200k min which I am never likely to have
 
Re: So what would you do if you were the magazine owner?

I would have to take issue that "fractional rig design is better than masthead".I have owned both types of boat & raced many fractional designs with runners.
Both have their merits.In my opinion fractional rigs can be more difficult to tune & sail well.Because of the inherrent variables of the fractional rig (the backstay adjuster in particular) it requires more tuning to get a fractional rig to sail well & if you do not get it right your boat is likely to perform badly.A masthead rig is less tweakable & once set up correctly is easier for the average sailor but may be less satisfying for the racer.Some fractional rigs having larger mainsails need early reefing to avoid the boat luffing up in a blow .I find the balance of masthead rig better on my Moody31 & since I got a new 130% genoa (instead of the 150% it had before) I can hold full sail near to a f5 on most points of sail.
Incidently I could have afforded a nearly new Ben/Bav/Jen but as a personal preference I found that the older boats gave me more of what I was looking for.
My wife does not sail so accommodation for me came below sailing & handling abilities. It is after all a matter of personal preference which is why there are so many different boats about in the first place.Each to his own.
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

I didn't mention the 2006 event?? Seeing as how you mentioned it though, I don't like plastic fantastic modern tupperware tubs, make no bones about it.........

If you spent less time trying to be a smart ass, which you aren't, who knows, you might have something worthwhile to contribute to these forums?

You should try to remember that other peoples opinions are just as valid as yours, but having seen a lot of your posts, it seems you delight in putting other people down, for the benefit of your own somewhat puffed up ego.

I have been lurking around here for a pretty long time, and it seems to me that there are way too many posters like you, it also seems to me that these forums are the domain of well off middle class numpties, with an over inflated sense of their own importance.

Cheery bye, I'm gone.
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

Crikey if you met FC, you'd not describe him as 'well off middle class'... as for 'numptie'... well thats your opinion.... you've obviously not met the guy.... personally, i'd trust him with my life....

Anyway.... away from the personal insults which do nothing but discredit you.

You may not like 'plastic fantastic'.... but please don't forget that many on here have the sort of boats you so readily denegrate.... you can't do so, and expect no response....

To add to the discussion.... I think that there is a great deal of 'marketing' here.... there is a general perception that newer plastic boats don't handle rough weather well.... I wonder how many of the proponents of such views have sailed in an AWB in a blow......
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

Isn't this a completely pointless argument? How can you possibly say something so over simplified as "old boats are better than new boats", or visa versa. There's just too many factors involved... old boats might on the whole be better, for some, at some things - new better for some at others.

And the beauty argument... it's completely subjective.

So when you read a magazine article and there's some comment suggesting that some feature of an older boat is preferable, that's quite feasible is it not - but it doesn't mean that "old boats are better than new boats".
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

I agree 100% with that.... which is why I think there was quite a strong reaction to people taking a stance at either end of the spectrum....

I will also add, that personal attacks, yet again risk spoiling a perfectly interesting thread. Why do it?
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

I have a 26ft MAB with a beam of 7ft 6ins, a long keel and a transom hung rudder.

She will go anywhere but is smelly, damp and cramped. Hopeless with three on board, OK with two, fine with one. And cheap. Which is fine for me. I like sailing alone or with a mate and am fairly hardy, SWMBO has "better things' to do, and the kids are away.

I really appreciate being invited aboard an AWB for a drink or a meal. I like the warmth and comfort and am jealous of the space. If I had more dosh and a family to take sailing I would probably have an AWB. Not so pretty, maybe not so hardcore, but horses for courses.

Some of my best friends, very good sailors and sensible, successful people have AWBs. Good for them.

In the meantime, I'm hoping for better weather because living on my boat for the next week in cold wet weather will be miserable, despite a fine sheer line and a heavy build.

Sail more, Slag less

(Slag: Scots word for 1. unpleasant, abusive and usually unnecessary insults
2. a lady of doubtful virtue )
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

Well said Morgana, having met FC myself, what Crusty said could not be further from the truth and at least FC has a filled in bio so we all know a little about him, come on Crusty, open up, who are you?

Crusty you are the one who used the the Jester 2010 as an example, the race hasn't taken place yet, FC reminded you of the result of the last race. An entry list is one thing the results another. You cannot be selective about the facts.

William_H. You talk about your doubts of the lifespan of laminated hulls. One of the earliest builders of laminated hulls, is my own 'brand' of boat Etap. The first Etap, a 22 was built in 1972, that's 36 years ago. There are many Etaps around from the late 80's all still fine.
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

Spot on, Morgana. I was following this thread with interest and then someone comes in and starts slagging. Takes the pleasure out of it.
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

What a pity we can't have a sensible reasonable discussion about an interesting subject without all this nastiness. I simply mentioned above that I thought older boats have more personality and character with prettier lines than modern designs ... and I've got both an old one and a new one so can make a direct comparison ... also that extra space doesn't bother me. With some obviously size matters - probably a symbol of the size of their overdraft. All I get in return is nastiness and an accusation of talking b*llocks. I generally find true yachting enthusiasts to be nicer people than this ... what a shame.
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are better

[ QUOTE ]
Quote. Should we wait 10 years from now so that they become good too?

No, but posibly wait ten years by which time they will further reduced quality and make them for half the price, thus making todays model look better.

It happened in the seventies and eighties so why not again?

[/ QUOTE ]This I think, certainly in my mind, is the heart of the debate. I'm not convinced that the quality is being significantly reduced. I think that the design criteria are changing, and the level of understanding of the materials used is changing..... and this is driving the ability to produce boats at a lower price..... we just haven't yet adapted to recognising that FG doesn't need to be 40mm thick to have enough strength..... and in fact, there are arguments that state that heavy boats put more load on the fixtures and fittings such as chain plates, and so, in some ways might be less safe... just a different view point... intended to stimulate interesting debate.... don't shoot me!
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are better

This is an interesting debate. No need for any insults though. Kittern - if your reference to "All I get in return is nastiness and an accusation of talking b*llocks" is in reference to my statement earlier in this thread, then read what I said again. I did not accuse anyone of anything and just made a statement without reference to anyone. I think the conclusion to all of this is simple. We all like boats, old or new, cheap or expensive. That's what we're here for isn't it? No boat is perfect regardless of the money. They are all a compromise in some way. Let's enjoy them. I have to say though IMHO lovers of older designs/boats do seem for the most part biased without really looking at the facts. Still what the heck, if they are happy great.
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

[ QUOTE ]
I really appreciate being invited aboard an AWB for a drink or a meal. I like the warmth and comfort and am jealous of the space.

[/ QUOTE ] Spot-on - love it when I am entertained on board a modern plastic fantastic - but I would still rather take cramped little old Fairwinds on a 500 mile offshore trip.

Best of all are designs that do it all - fantastic accommodation, build quality and seakeeping. We had a wonderful meal on board a beautifully appointed Island Packet 38 (old model) in Horta which ticked every box for me - except price!

Everyone will buy the boat they can afford for the type of sailing they aspire to. A new Bav kept permanently in the Canaries and used in the UK Winter as a mobile apartment for inter-island cruising would be very nice, and may be what happens at some point if finances permit, but at the moment I wouldn't be happy with one for the type of sailing we envisage over the next few years.

As I said before in my widely ignored /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif post, horses for courses. I still think it is a joke giving all new AWBs over a certain length an RCD Cat A 'Ocean' rating though. I don't appreciate a boat that will broach as soon as she becomes overcanvassed and where the helmsman is trapped behind the wheel unable to get to the distant mainsheet. (Moorings Beneterau Oceanis 411, BVI charter fleet)

And Chrusty - Full Circle is one of the good guys. Sometimes it can be hard to see the wood for the trees here.

- W
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

In an effort to continue with the discussion. I take your point about the RCD A cat, being given to all boats over a certain length, but, the designers have now had time to build in the features that allow a yacht to meet the requirements for an A classification.

Whilst the words seakindly, good off shore, weatherly etc are often used to describe the older boats, I wonder how they would stand up to the RCD standards?
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

[ QUOTE ]

I will also add, that personal attacks, yet again risk spoiling a perfectly interesting thread. Why do it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree entirely. Not necessary and rather unpleasant. I don't know FC but find many of his posts amusing.

On the subject of old v new, surely is personal choice. I own a plastic boat from the early eighties and wouldn't want to change. Friends along the pontoon have a newish Bav 42. In light airs they beat the crap out of us. Once the wind gets up the position is reversed. I'd kill for their accommodation.

Sounds like 2 to 1 to them? It probably is. Still wouldn't want to swap. I couldn't really tell you why, just personal preference diffr'nt folks...........

Chap I knew who sailed a Thames barge always said something like "the best boat is the one you're currently sailing". Gets my vote.

As you say, an interesting discussion. No need for vitriol.
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder how they would stand up to the RCD standards?

[/ QUOTE ] Well, they wouldn't - because different values are being applied.

STIX numbers place a considerable weighting on length, which as I understand it means that no yacht under 30ft could ever be given a Cat A Ocean rating.

The AVS angle of vanishing stability), however, is less relevant . It is still a consideration when calculating the STIX number, but yachts with an AVS of less than 120 deg are now being given Cat A Ocean ratings. AVS numbers this low mean that there is a very real possibility that the vessel might not recover from an inversion. This is exacerbated by modern wide beam designs which have considerable inverted stability.

(Sits back and waits to be told he is speaking rubbish . . .)

- W
 
Re: It\'s really getting boring of reading articles that older are bett

[ QUOTE ]
(Sits back and waits to be told he is speaking rubbish . . .)

[/ QUOTE ]

Your speaking rubbish, there feel better? /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Don't want to get to heavy into the STIX/RCD thing but, the STIX assessment also considers downflooding, irrespective of length an older boat with low freeboard may loose out purely because of that, ??? or have I missunderstood?
 
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