ISDMT #2 - Is this correct?

[BlueSkyNick]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I've heard enough now to know that Spain is not a safe place to stay for >183 days

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with that. There seems to be too much risk from uncertainty and interpretation to plan on being based in Spain at the current time.

Maybe in a year or two, when there have been some more cases which have set a precadent, the situation willo become clearer.

 

[JamesFrance]

In our case we are still resident in France and pay their taxes, so we will not exceed the 182 days per year. However our boat will stay in Spain, so we will have to see what eventually arises as a result. Having taken on a long lease berth we don't have much option, but fortunately our boat does not have a high value.

In the 1970s we based boats in Spain and also France. Then you just notified the customs that the boat was laid up when you left and there were no problems, but then we were not on board for so long and I don't remember what the rules were about that then.

Whether any country can force someone resident elsewhere to re-register because the boat stays in their harbour seems to be the point at issue.

 

[Ariadne]

Let me get this straight then, as I understand it right or wrong.

A UK flagged (Part 1, full registry) vessel is plying its trade in Europe, It delivers cargo from the UK to France and Spain. Due to weather and crewing problems it spends 190 days in Spain or Spanish waters. It now has to transpher its registry, re-qualify the ships officers so they have Spanish certification, and the owners have to pay for all this ( marina/docking fees, crews wages & re-registration fees as well as a fine and import duty) all the while their vessel is impounded by Spanish authorities. I think not!

This doesn't sound right to me. I don't see how one member state can force anybody to move thier vessel from thier national registry to another member states registry legally. Certainly in the UK you have to prove your nationality and have a UK address (for all correspondence from RSS) to register your vessel part 1.

I'd also like to see them force this on an American flagged vessel! Is it only the Brit's they are forcing this on?

Maritime law is a minefield in any case, but I just don't see how they can enforce this - you may have been in for structural repairs and still on passage what happens then?

Any experts on MARITIME LAW out there?

 

[Ariadne]

If this is a EU Directive then it will or should affect all vessels regardless of state, whether they are comercial or not.
Just think about all the British flagged, Spanish, Dutch, German owned fishing boats there are out there, sitting in harbours all around the european coast.

It has to be illegal, to work this purely on a vessels stay, for it to work they would have to need to prove you are living on a permenant or near permenant basis in the member state to enforce this.

Also, if you genuinly live aboard then your ships logbook is a legal document and can be used as evidence in a court of law. So long as you enter the dates for joining and leaving the vessel, along with the details of where you have been it is proof enough.

 

[Ariadne]

Just one more thing.

As I understand it, by being UK Part 1 registered, you are governed soley by UK maritime law and any international maritime laws that may apply. Your Part 1 UK registered boat is by definition also UK Sovereign Territory and therefore offers you all protection that comes with it.

So I suppose, in theory you can call the RN in to chuck off said Spaniards and take you and your vessel safely to international waters.

 

[Tranona]

You are confusing two issues here. Your freedom to navigate in a "Coastal State" territorial waters without complying with their registration requirements is governed by the UN Convention of the law of the sea. It is limited to what is known as "innocent passage" which means that the Coastal State will allow passage through their waters as part of the ship's normal business, for example to go from one international body of water to another or to enter a port of the coastal state. The legal concept of "comity" is used to indicate that the Coastal State will accept that your vessel is covered by the requirements of your Flag State. This is why Flag States such as Liberia, Panama, Bahamas, Bermuda etc are popular as their registration requirements, for example on crewing can be different from other states.

The same principle applies to yachts. However, most states allow far more than that, for example allowing a yacht to go from one port to another, to keeping your yacht permanently moored in their territorial waters (like mine in Greece). However, this is nothing to do with EU freedom of movement or local taxes and requirements where the Coastal State can do whatever it likes. Nor does it exempt you from any civil or criminal law applicable in the state. The authorities may also constrain your movement if they believe you are a danger.

The topic under discussion in this thread is therefore nothing to do with maritime law, but the application of a Spanish tax law that seems also to be allowed by the EU, but not used by all states.

Most of the debate here is about the clarity (or rather lack) of the law and its seemingly variable implementation.

 

[Ariadne]

Well how can a member state force a person to remove his/her vessel from thier national registry to and re-register the vessel on another members register. I don't see what registration of a vessel has to do with a tax law. If the vessel is to imported then fine it has to comply with the member states laws.

The clarity of the tax situation is relatively clear >183 day you are liable thats it. The enforcement of this isn't clear at all.

On the other hand, I'm not sure of the legality of the re-registration issue and all that goes with it. This why I brought up the maritime law bit. This is also what is being discussed here, is it not.

 

[Tranona]

Please read the details. The "tax" law is to do with the importation of a "means" of transport and is levied when the boat is "imported" into Spain. It is then considered a Spanish Boat and has to be registered in Spain. In just the same way as you have to do with a car. You also have to recognise that in the UK registration of yachts is not compulsory, but it is in most other countries.

They are not "forcing" you to take it off the British Register but saying that if it is in Spain then it must be registered in Spain.

Go back to my original explanation of the UN Convention - your ability to navigate in Spanish waters as a UK registered ship is very limited.

Also forget about "member state" by which I assume you are referring to EU. The UN Convention does not differentiate between EU and non-EU.

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
Let me get this straight then, as I understand it right or wrong.

A UK flagged (Part 1, full registry) vessel is plying its trade in Europe, It delivers cargo from the UK to France and Spain.

[/ QUOTE ]No. We are talking about pleasure vessels (see my earlier post). Pleasure vessels don't ply their trade or have Ships Officers. The EU is lumping private cars, pleasure vessels, private planes into the same group.

The odd thing that sticks out is that the term ISDMT includes the term 'Matriculation' = registration. We (i.e. those who have been discussing this actively for some years) have always assumed that if one pays the ISDMT then necessarily one will be liable to re-register. I think that needs looking into but it isn't easy. Spanish lawyers are a waste of money -- I would never throw more money at those idiots -- we would need to employ a good International firm of lawyers in London. That might not be cheap -- on the other hand, they might already have the answer in a briefing sheet and sell it to us for £20. Who knows, but I am hundreds of pounds out of pocket with this, this year, with nothing left in the budget.

 

[chrisc]

usually 183 days in any 12 month period in my experience.

 

[chrisc]

does the 185 days in a calendar year rule still apply? I know it used to ,and I have taken advantage off this in the past ,ie. working the last half 1of one year and the first half of next year .so giving me effectively 1 year .BUT the (EU)country I was in very quickly changed those rules so that we could only spend 183 days in any twelve month period.

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
... and [tax] is levied when the boat is "imported" into Spain. It is then considered a Spanish Boat and has to be registered in Spain.

[/ QUOTE ] "Registered in Spain" isn't a term that I know of. Do you mean re-flagged, from British to Spanish ensign? Paying the tax is the least of the problems in doing that...the homogulation requirements for a Spanish yacht are very different to a British yacht. I think that a nearly new volume production yacht -- e.g. Ben-Jan -- would be pretty easy but older or lower volume yachts are are real problem. My Nauticat is 9 years old and when I looked at the requirements to re-register under the Spanish flag it looked as though it would be cheaper to buy a brand new Nauticat to Spanish requirements.

[ QUOTE ]
They are not "forcing" you to take it off the British Register but saying that if it is in Spain then it must be registered in Spain.

[/ QUOTE ] I think that's probably correct but we don't know. I don't know of a single case where that has been asked for and has been carried out. I do know of one case where it was asked for, but I don't know the outcome. I'll try to find out but those folk were living, working and paying taxes in Spain...totally resident in every sense so it might not help us much.

[ QUOTE ]
Go back to my original explanation of the UN Convention - your ability to navigate in Spanish waters as a UK registered ship is very limited.

[/ QUOTE ] I think I know what you are getting at but in reality, EU tourists are perfectly free to travel in their private pleasure yachts, coming and going freely, throughout the EU unless they stay for more than six months. Sailing through Spain, France and Italy is like being in the same country....nobody interferes with you or gets heavy. No customs, etc. The most you get is a (perfectly reasonable) requirement to show your Ships Papers and Insurance on arrival or a very trivial tax in some parts of Spain.

 

[Grehan]

[ QUOTE ]
needs looking into but it isn't easy

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, that's an understatement.
Even if one were only talking about some kind of reliable guidance for Spain.

If the context of what appears to be happening in Spain has an EU dimension, and each EU member state has the ability to interpret and apply separately and differently in its own right then we really are all at sea in a sieve.

Someone here has implied that even discussing the topic or trying to get (unreliable?) information is in some way dangerous, drawing attention that would otherwise not exist. I think I'd be happy to 'keep schtum', head down if I knew for sure why I was hiding, what exactly I was hiding from and what the consequences might be if nabbed. So far as phoning Senor Villar is concerned, ten boats in his harbour, Torrevieja, have been served notice, there has been an article in the Daily Telegraph about it, plus extensive outraged coverage in the local Torrevieja newspapers. I don't think I'd put much faith in Senor Villar's 'answers' (well, zero to be honest), but I don't think any cats would be let out of any bags!

I am also aware of the possibility of us all crying wolf about something that may not be that serious, and that all this concern might be based on nothing more than unsubstantiated rumour. This might the case, but I don't think so. Something does appear to be 'afoot'.

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
does the 185 days in a calendar year rule still apply?

[/ QUOTE ]It seems that residency is based on time spent in the country in a calendar year and that private vehicle taxation is based on time spent in the country in the last twelve months. At least, that's the EU position though the EU rules do allow the individual states to be more generous.

 

[Tranona]

Thought it was pretty obvious I was referring to Spanish registration - and suspect you are right when you say it won't be easy. My only source of information on this was a friend in Ibiza who investigated registering his boat in Spain because he lived there and shelved the idea, because of the requirements, particularly the test of competence. As you say, until somebody experiences that part of the "process" we won't know.

Think you are wrong about freedom of movement. Whilst that is true for individuals it is not true for the boat and right of navigation in territorial waters, which is covered by the UN convention. The fact that states (not just EU) allow much more does not change the legal framework. For a more definitive discourse on the subject see pp17-19 of the autumn 2008 RYA members magazine. The requirement to show your ships papers (and fly the red ensign) is to confirm that your yacht is indeed registered in the UK and is not subject to Spanish/French etc registration requirements while in their territorial waters.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

The link to the Telegraph article is HERE

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
Thought it was pretty obvious I was referring to Spanish registration

[/ QUOTE ]What does that mean? Does that mean that the UK flagged vessel has been paid up and can remain in Spanish waters or does it mean that the vessel has been re-registered on the Spanish list and is now flying a Spanish flag?

It could be that having paid the tax, provided the owner is non-resident, the vessel can remain under the British flag. That would make sense.....but is it the case?

 

[Grehan]

Story repeats

Looks like it's also been picked up on "Sail World"
http://www.sail-world.com/cruising/index.cfm?nid=52563&rid=11
and "Noonsite"
http://www.noonsite.com/Members/sue/R2009-01-09-1

 

[Tranona]

You tell me! The earlier posts suggested that the "tax" was related to importing the means of transport into Spain and then it had to be registered in Spain. I know no more than that because even the English translations posted here are unclear.

 

[JamesFrance]

Re: Story repeats

All these articles are copying each other.

There is nothing at all to suggest that any of this relates to non residents. The people concerned have been living in Spain tax free so far. There are also caravan sites full of folk doing the same, so it was bound to be caught up with eventually. No country would tolerate this if it realised.

People have been evading Spanish taxes for years.