savageseadog
Well-known member
Are any racing events in the UK subject to sailor classification restrictions
ISAF Sailor Classification and UK Yacht Racing (Professional Sailors)
- Thread starter savageseadog
- Start date
flaming
Well-known member
Yes, loads.
Most of the OD national championships limit both the number of pros, and don't let them drive unless they own the boat. Even the fast 40 fleet limit the number. (To 6 I think). They have an owner driver rule which is slightly different.
But the system is a total joke. I counted as a pro because I did Sunsail corporate stuff. Which is a farce, that wasn't racing that was babysitting. But I was apparently the equal of sailmakers and Olympians!
However, most of the IRC stuff - Cowes, Fastnet, etc, has no limits that I've ever seen.
Most of the OD national championships limit both the number of pros, and don't let them drive unless they own the boat. Even the fast 40 fleet limit the number. (To 6 I think). They have an owner driver rule which is slightly different.
But the system is a total joke. I counted as a pro because I did Sunsail corporate stuff. Which is a farce, that wasn't racing that was babysitting. But I was apparently the equal of sailmakers and Olympians!
However, most of the IRC stuff - Cowes, Fastnet, etc, has no limits that I've ever seen.
savageseadog
Well-known member
Thanks
I've taken part in a number of club series and regattas where there has been boats owned and sailed by sailmakers, marina and boatyard owners which doesn't seem to be fair, there is a quantifiable advantage gained. I've been looking at the rules for some of these events and there were no proscriptions for them. RRS doesn't incorporate a general proscription in favour of amateur sailing so it's left to clubs and event organisers to decide their own policy. The problem with this is that he who pays the piper...........................
I've taken part in a number of club series and regattas where there has been boats owned and sailed by sailmakers, marina and boatyard owners which doesn't seem to be fair, there is a quantifiable advantage gained. I've been looking at the rules for some of these events and there were no proscriptions for them. RRS doesn't incorporate a general proscription in favour of amateur sailing so it's left to clubs and event organisers to decide their own policy. The problem with this is that he who pays the piper...........................
flaming
Well-known member
Tricky one....
I tend to think that if the boat is owned by the sailmaker or the marina manager etc, then that's very different to someone paying a pro to sail with them. After all, there are probably very few, if any, people professionally involved in racing who didn't get into their profession as a by product of just loving sailing and getting very good at it. It would seem perverse to exclude someone who loves sailing so much to have actually done the illogical and bought a boat from a regatta because he happens to earn his crust from making sails.
On the other hand, you have to ask what your objection is to sailing against them? We have on many occasions come up against professionally crewed "Dealer" entries, and it's definitely the case that sailing against them forced us to raise our game. There is also a boat that is a constant thorn in our side over recent years, and we'll be going up against them again at Cowes this year, that has professionals as a large proportion of its crew. Whether or not they are actually being paid to sail that boat or sail that boat for fun with a bunch of friends I have no idea, but there's no doubt that they will start the week as favourites. Personally, much as we might take the piss out of a "pro'd upped boat" I quite like sailing against them as it's a real measure of how good you are!
All that said... There is definitely a case for some events to be strictly amateur to allow people new to the sport a chance to sail without the sometimes demoralizing experience of being beaten by hours by people that you're never going to get to the level of.
lw395
Well-known member
It's good to sail in events with the top people.
It's nice to see the people who are a bit better than me soundly beaten by the serious sailors.
It's also nice to have raced against champions, pros and olympians.
And as Flaming says, you learn a little bit now and then.
When all is said and done, I'm only comparing my performance to other amateurs.
In the dinghy I might get blown away by the heavies in a breeze, but still have an excellent race against other H&W teams.
There are also some real amateurs who can beat the pro's.
You look at the fleets and decide who you want to race against.
It's nice to see the people who are a bit better than me soundly beaten by the serious sailors.
It's also nice to have raced against champions, pros and olympians.
And as Flaming says, you learn a little bit now and then.
When all is said and done, I'm only comparing my performance to other amateurs.
In the dinghy I might get blown away by the heavies in a breeze, but still have an excellent race against other H&W teams.
There are also some real amateurs who can beat the pro's.
You look at the fleets and decide who you want to race against.
Keen_Ed
Active member
The failings of the system are a direct result of the ways that people gamed amateur requirements in the past.
flaming
Well-known member
lw395
Well-known member
Are those limits not all Class Association rules?
So a bunch of owners have decided how they wish to race.
People who don't like the Class Rules, don't buy into the class (obviously it could be annoying if the rules change after you've written the very large cheque...)
Keen_Ed
Active member
a) Yes they are. The point is not about skill, it's about limiting the number of people getting paid.
b) Exactly. Although there is a cop out in that someone under 24 who is paid for fewer than 100 days a year is still group 1. So you fill your boat with pros, but half of them are yoof. You're legal, but still paying for them all.
c) True, but it's been around for so long now that I doubt that situation would arise.
flaming
Well-known member
It' b that I always had a problem with. At the level I sail at there are pros on many boats, but in almost no cases are they actually being paid by the owner to sail on that day. The whole point of being a pro sailor, especially at the lower end of the scale, is that you flipping love sailing and it was your hobby way before it was your job. And in most cases those are people who are pro not because they actually get paid to race, but because they work for sailmakers, riggers, yacht dealers etc.
I did 1 J109 nationals, but I had offers to do others for 3 different boats until they realised I wasn't cat 1. Because I occasionally drove Sunsail boats I counted as a pro, which was laughable, it isn't racing when you're the only person on board that knows what a Halyard is.
So despite the fact that all of my racing was just for fun, and I've never been paid to race other than in a Sunsail boat full of corporates, I counted as equal to the North sails rep, etc. And given that these guys also wanted to sail in the fleet (and also weren't being paid by the boat owner directly) I was basically kept out of many of the boats until 2 years after I drove for Sunsail for the last time, by which time all the people I knew and wanted to sail with were out of the class.
Which was mildly laughable the one year I did go, and you look across at the boat next to you and recognise a bunch of full time RYA sponsored "Olympic squad" sailors, who were 2 years younger than me, so not pro....
lw395
Well-known member
flaming;5724838.... Because I occasionally drove Sunsail boats I counted as a pro said:
Keen_Ed
Active member
[off topic aside] The best test I've heard for working out if you can afford to race a particular boat is: can you write a cheque for a new mast without worrying about it? [/ota]
Birdseye
Well-known member
No need. Just race the event under NHC. Assuming its a series rather than one race, that evens things out pretty quickly.
