Is this allowed? paying crew.

Like it or not, there are rules in place to protect the ignorant (or customers as they're known). As soon as someone is paying money for goods or services, they are entitled to expect certain legally binding standards to be in place. When considering marine activities, these standards are set by law and enforced by the MCA. The standards are not particularly onerous nor expensive (in comparison to the overall cost of a boat) to implement.
So, there is a simple equation to be solved when thinking about charging money for providing a sailing service. Do I defy the law and not bother with safety standards and appropriate training and run the risk of prosecution or do I comply with the law. I hold no brief for the Solway Sailing chap one way or the other and would probably be happy enough to sail with him. But I know what to look for in a boat and it's skipper: I'd be able to look things over and back away if I thought that either his boat or passage plan was in any way unsafe. Someone booking through his website who had never set foot on a boat before would not have that knowledge and would not therefore be able to take an informed decision: the law is there to protect that person.
In addition, by undertaking the required training and having the boat inspected for coding, the skipper would have demonstrated a reasonable understanding of safe practices at sea. This would assist him in defending himself against any claims for negligence in the event of an accident, as he should be able to show he had done his best to mitigate the risks involved to his customers.
Others may favour a Wild West approach to this question: no rules and no protection. That's their opinion, just happens to be one that I don't agree with.
 
Would it be too much of an extrapolation to ensure that no second hand equipment is sold on ebay? Theoretically, you could be buying a winch that's inherently dodgy.. And for the same reasons that there should be an MCA to stop people charging for sailing trips for public safety, isn't buying didgy second hand stuff at least in the same ballpark?

Where do you draw the line?
 
Tranona said:
What kind of world do you live in that assumes laws are unnecessary? There is nothing contentious about this particular law which has been in place for a very long time. The only issue is about exactly where the line between the two is drawn as the law lays down the principles rather than prescribing specifics. However, it is not difficult to make a judgement based on individual circumstances.

Neither you, nor I - or any other individual has the right to ignore a law just because we do not like it personally. We can have an opinion, just as you seem to have, but nobody has to justify the law to you. If you don't like it and want it changed, lobby parliament to change it.
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My point (which you missed) is that laws are often not thought through and not that we should not have them, especially where (heaven forbid) profits could be involved. (it would not have been impossible to have a boat length based system where you can charge a crew upto say £5/metre for a displacement vessel and £10/m for planing/semi planing for example and if we had had joined up government, the HMRC could have then allowed upto this amount to be exempt from taxable income/ capital gains tax)

Everyone can indeed make their own judgement and in this case, if they feel the Ebayer's charge is aimed at making him a profit and they don't like the idea that he may do so, then they walk away.
 
So how would the uninitiated understand the difference between the not for profit Solway Sailing and the not for profit Trinity Sailing (the organisation that runs Provident and Leader?) when booking a sail?
 
ianj99 said:
My point (which you missed) is that laws are often not thought through and not that we should not have them, especially where (heaven forbid) profits could be involved. (it would not have been impossible to have a boat length based system where you can charge a crew upto say £5/metre for a displacement vessel and £10/m for planing/semi planing for example and if we had had joined up government, the HMRC could have then allowed upto this amount to be exempt from taxable income/ capital gains tax)
Everyone can indeed make their own judgement and in this case, if they feel the Ebayer's charge is aimed at making him a profit and they don't like the idea that he may do so, then they walk away.
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Well, the law in this case is well thought through. It is based on extensive experience of maritime matters and is fully supported by the organisations involved. In our country we delegate responsibility to expert bodies to formulate law based on evidence. Suggest you look at the history of small boat chartering before the current rules were introduced and then you might see why they are necessary. There is a balance between limiting private arrangements between friends and ensuring that once you get into a situation where it is no longer a private but a public relationship between parties mainly connected by money then different rules apply. All you are proposing is a different way of drawing that line that is neither "thought through" nor based on any evidence.

The current law works very well. Many private boats are run on a cost sharing basis because they meet the tests that put them clearly in the "leisure" category. There are also many that might be considered marginal, such as that owned by the poster on the previous thread - although in his case his particular method of operation does seem to keep him the right side of the line. The one currently under discussion might also be considered marginal, but on closer analysis clearly goes over the line.

There are many people in a similar situation who operate at a low level with a small boat, but take the decision to comply by coding their boat - not difficult or expensive on a well found boat, and if they offer tuition gain the necessary qualification to demonstrate their competence. Nobody is ever going to make a profit out of such an activity as there are not enough customers prepared to pay enough money to cover all costs. Those customers must still have confidence that the boat is suitable and the skipper competent.
 
chrisbitz said:
Would it be too much of an extrapolation to ensure that no second hand equipment is sold on ebay? Theoretically, you could be buying a winch that's inherently dodgy.. And for the same reasons that there should be an MCA to stop people charging for sailing trips for public safety, isn't buying didgy second hand stuff at least in the same ballpark?

Where do you draw the line?
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Exactly.
Its cheaper and easier to legislate than to educate.
 
Its only when the UK sinks under the weight of law books and 90% of the population earn a living enforcing the law will some on here be happy.

I drive a car and I occasionally speed but I go to the bother of making sure the car is as safe as possible even fitting winter tyres.

I own a charter boat that has far more equipment on it than the coding requires but do think its an over regulated area of sailing. I enjoy the freedom of sailing , making my own decisions and object to laws regarding drinking, lifejackets, when to set sail etc with border controls.

I would much prefer a catch all law that you can be prosecuted if you cause injury by being unsafe and the level of safety should be equivalent to your peers level for the activity undertaken.

IMHO Too many people want laws to exist to solve problems that don't exist.
 
Sailfree said:
Its only when the UK sinks under the weight of law books and 90% of the population earn a living enforcing the law will some on here be happy.

I drive a car and I occasionally speed but I go to the bother of making sure the car is as safe as possible even fitting winter tyres.

I own a charter boat that has far more equipment on it than the coding requires but do think its an over regulated area of sailing. I enjoy the freedom of sailing , making my own decisions and object to laws regarding drinking, lifejackets, when to set sail etc with border controls.

I would much prefer a catch all law that you can be prosecuted if you cause injury by being unsafe and the level of safety should be equivalent to your peers level for the activity undertaken.

IMHO Too many people want laws to exist to solve problems that don't exist.
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Well said.
Such a 'catch all' law ('reckless endangerment'?) could also be used to replace the myriad of motoring and health & safety laws but would put a awful lot of lawmakers out of work...
 
In general I am anti-legislation but when you are offering yacht sailing trips to all and sundry for money the current boat coding situation plus commercial YM as skipper setup works pretty well. Very different from taking old Uncle Albert or your young nieces/nephews out for a sail. There you have some knowledge of the peoples' physical ability and personality.

If you are offering trips round the bay or a ferry service in specific limited waters there are many areas that operate various other forms of licensing, often with lesser skipper qualifications such as Boatman's Licences but again there are (correctly) checks on the boat's suitability and equipment, and limits on where the boat can go.

These restrictions are in place precisely because of the potential for danger - even with licensing you can still have incidents like 'Marchioness' - 51 dead.
 
ianj99 said:
Well said.
Such a 'catch all' law ('reckless endangerment'?) could also be used to replace the myriad of motoring and health & safety laws but would put a awful lot of lawmakers out of work...
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That exists already in addition to specific regulations governing specific activities or relationships. The whole purpose of statute law is to establish principles in specific situations rather than rely on generalities.
 
It's incredible how quickly some will start moaning about an imaginary mob and then link their wingeing to perceived freedoms. The OP asked a simple question about Solway Sailings activities and there has been a discussion about that. Nobody has threatened to rat on him to MCA, nobody has damned him for what he has been doing, nobody has even expressed anything approaching outrage. The consensus however has been that his activity is probably not been within the law. Solway now seems to have accepted that what he was doing may not be legal and is checking it out. Despite all that the anti-mob mob want to get on their high horses and start yelling "foul".
 
ianj99 said:
Since the general public in your world are obviously so stupid, they may well take advantage of your dental skills so do need a nanny state to keep them safe.

In my world, most of us have something called common sense.
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The problem is that in this scenario it's very much like having a building that looks like a dental surgery with kit that looks like proper dental kit and someone dressed as a dentist claiming to be a dentist but charging half of what a real dentist would charge. The public do not need to be stupid to be lulled into a false sense of security and that's why these laws exist.

There are (to my knowledge) no laws requiring certification for handymen if they keep away from the gas and electric, and there are whole TV series dedicated to showing what people have paid them for thinking they were pros...
 
ianj99 said:
My point (which you missed) is that laws are often not thought through and not that we should not have them, especially where (heaven forbid) profits could be involved.
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Maybe so, but where they do exist we are all obliged to abide by them (and yes I have been caught speeding a few times over the past 40 years).

If it is OK for Solway Sailing to carry on, as you suggest, we might as well all do it.

Anybody fancy coming for a sail ? Only £54.95 per day.
 
lustyd said:
but charging half of what a real dentist would charge. The public do not need to be stupid to be lulled into a false sense of security and that's why these laws exist.
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I totally agree but the fact is he is also charging a commercial rate (not half price), you can charter a skippered yacht out of Plymouth for £60.00pp per day that is coded with qualified skipper including vat. £50.00 + vat he is charging £55.00. My concern would be that the boat has sufficient clip on points, good harnesses, working vhf, epirb, bilge pump, storm sails, anchor etc etc that would safe guard the crew in the event of bad weather or gear failure. The coded stuff is just routine for a well founded and equipped yacht (in my view of course but I also coded my boat)

I'd say £10.00 pp a day maybe £15.00 with pretty good food, maybe a pound or two for diesel, that's not commercial.
 
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As soon as you start charging a fee for a days sail as opposed to saying 'welcome on board, we'll see how much today costs us and split it between us' you are effectively marketing a commercial operation. Doesn't matter how small the fee. If you are running a commercial operation, you must comply with the law relating to commercial operations. Simple. You may not like the law, but there it is and it's been there for a long time.
The law has evolved over a long time as a result of the loss of life from countless maritime incidents. It is not come about as the result of some bored faceless paper shufflers looking for something else to regulate but in response to real concerns about how to prevent loss of life at sea. The idea that the current regulations are a construct of the elf and safety brigade over the past few years does not stand examination.
As I said before, I don't hold a brief against Solway Sailing but, as he seems to have acknowledged, he had moved outside the law in his operation. The remedy for him is to get his boat coded and himself qualified before recomencing his operation.
 
duncan99210 said:
As I said before, I don't hold a brief against Solway Sailing but, as he seems to have acknowledged, he had moved outside the law in his operation. The remedy for him is to get his boat coded and himself qualified before recomencing his operation.
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Or he could stop charging a flat and relatively high rate. Would the MCA care if he said "A tenner will cover diesel, gas, sandwiches and other consumables and we'll split the the cost of any marinas we visit"? From the figures he's posted, he may not be earning enough to justify the hassle of coding and extra qualifications.
 
JumbleDuck said:
Or he could stop charging a flat and relatively high rate. Would the MCA care if he said "A tenner will cover diesel, gas, sandwiches and other consumables and we'll split the the cost of any marinas we visit"? From the figures he's posted, he may not be earning enough to justify the hassle of coding and extra qualifications.
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Although this is perhaps the easier of the two tests to determine where the line is drawn, he will still have to pass the other test which is about the relationship between him, his crew and the purpose of the voyage. So if it is his mates that he invites along on a trip and they pitch into the boat kitty that is OK. If he engages them, or strangers as crew to help him sail on a voyage that is for his benefit that is OK. If he takes strangers recruited through ebay and offers them an experience that might include tuition in return for a fixed fee that does not bear any direct relationship to the specific costs of the trip, the line has potentially been crossed.

The test is of the principles of the relationships and nature of the activity, not the amount of money he is charging. If he advertises overtly for strangers to join him then it is potentially a commercial activity, not a leisure activity.
 
moodyNick said:
Maybe so, but where they do exist we are all obliged to abide by them...
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For those who think that these rules are an encumberment on our freedom to run a business exactly as we please, this type of event is all too common in countries that do not have strict enforcement of marine safety laws...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ferry-capsizes-sinks-Thai-resort-Pattaya.html

As for those who claim that these rules are unnecessary because there isn't a problem of accidents at sea in the UK - there's a reason for that - most stick to the rules, and those who don't are persuaded otherwise by the MCA.
 
Tranona said:
Although this is perhaps the easier of the two tests to determine where the line is drawn, he will still have to pass the other test which is about the relationship between him, his crew and the purpose of the voyage.
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True, but if the no-money-changes-hands-save-an-equitable-share-of-direct-expenses is passed, the how-do-you-know-these-people test doesn't have to be applied, does it?

So if it is his mates that he invites along on a trip and they pitch into the boat kitty that is OK. If he engages them, or strangers as crew to help him sail on a voyage that is for his benefit that is OK. If he takes strangers recruited through ebay and offers them an experience that might include tuition in return for a fixed fee that does not bear any direct relationship to the specific costs of the trip, the line has potentially been crossed.
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I think if he set a fixed rate very low - that's why I suggested a tenner - he could make a reasonable case that, although it was a flat rate, it was a reasonable approximation to, as you put it, "the specific costs of the trip". Safest, of course, would simply be not to charge anything at all; second safest would be to work out exactly what was spent and divvy that up.

The test is of the principles of the relationships and nature of the activity, not the amount of money he is charging.
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Ah, but the amount of money he is charging is surely crucial to determining the nature of the activity? Five hundred quid a day to go sailing would clearly be commercial, while a fiver in the biscuits kitty would, I think, clearly not be commercial. I think we can agree, though, that £55 flat rate, plus any marina costs, is implausibly high for non-commercial, even if it is a fair reflection of his overall costs per day of sailing.
 
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