Is this allowed? paying crew.

[awol]

You don't think that the social inadequates didn't just see a potential victim, and charge in mob handed with their knives out?

I have just reread all the posts on this thread. Apart from a few who see nothing wrong in the situation, the general consensus is his motives are commendable but his methods leave him and his clients open to danger. No personal invective, no "I've reported him to the MCA", just a fair amount of sympathy and admiration at his chutzpah.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I hope the YBW keyboard warriors are very proud of themselves! They've already hounded the young girl off the forum, effectively lost the battle with Dylan, and now hounded a fellow yachtsman out of his pocket money making scheme.

Leave Britney alone!

 

[ianj99]

+1

I do hope the mob are now satisfied...

+1

 

[ianj99]

The point is that they are your mates, you don't go touting for the general public to sail with you.

So what? Its a free country (no thanks to the interfering do-gooder, H & S and politically correct) so if the 'general public' want to accept his offer and terms it is up to them.

 

[Tranona]

So what? Its a free country (no thanks to the interfering do-gooder, H & S and politically correct) so if the 'general public' want to accept his offer and terms it is up to them.

No. He is potentially breaking the law. Freedom does not extend to undertaking illegal activities.

Perhaps better he decides for himself what he needs to do to be legal than have the MCA do it for him.

 

[awol]

So what? Its a free country (no thanks to the interfering do-gooder, H & S and politically correct) so if the 'general public' want to accept his offer and terms it is up to them.

You are so right. Then there are all those unnecessary rules governing doctors, dentists, lawyers, gas-fitters, et al which stops anyone from earning pocket money from the "general public" without the tedious business of qualification. I've got a dremel and a wet/dry vacuum cleaner - think I'll advertise my dental skills at a rate that covers the heating and maintenance costs of my house. Will that be ok?

 

[ianj99]

You are so right. Then there are all those unnecessary rules governing doctors, dentists, lawyers, gas-fitters, et al which stops anyone from earning pocket money from the "general public" without the tedious business of qualification. I've got a dremel and a wet/dry vacuum cleaner - think I'll advertise my dental skills at a rate that covers the heating and maintenance costs of my house. Will that be ok?

Since the general public in your world are obviously so stupid, they may well take advantage of your dental skills so do need a nanny state to keep them safe.

In my world, most of us have something called common sense.

 

[Elemental]

Will that be ok?

It isn't a matter for me whether you do so or not. If you're not authorised by the BMA (or whoever the dental equivalent is) then I won't be letting you work on my teeth...

 

[JumbleDuck]

So what? Its a free country (no thanks to the interfering do-gooder, H & S and politically correct) so if the 'general public' want to accept his offer and terms it is up to them.

That's fine if the general public are able to make an informed decision about what is being offered. As someone very accurately put it upthread, we can make sensible judgements about our friends because we know whether they are meticulous, slapdash, cautious, foolhardy, calm, liable to panic and so on. We can't make those informed decisions about complete strangers, which is a justification for some standards governing both boat and skipper.

It's for precisely the same reason that your mother can give her grandchild a home-made teddy without anybody caring but if she wants to sell them to strangers she needs to get them CE tested.

 

[ianj99]

No. He is potentially breaking the law. Freedom does not extend to undertaking illegal activities.

Perhaps better he decides for himself what he needs to do to be legal than have the MCA do it for him.

Have you ever exceeded the speed limit? Its illegal, potentially dangerous and a lucrative source of funds for HM Constabulary.

The MCA would take a far keener policing role if they were able to levy fines for every infringement. (hope I haven't given them an idea)

Honestly, the idea that every citizen must abide by every rule & regulation drawn up by faceless bureaucrats without proper consultation is beyond a joke.

 

[ianj99]

That's fine if the general public are able to make an informed decision about what is being offered. As someone very accurately put it upthread, we can make sensible judgements about our friends because we know whether they are meticulous, slapdash, cautious, foolhardy, calm, liable to panic and so on. We can't make those informed decisions about complete strangers, which is a justification for some standards governing both boat and skipper.

It's for precisely the same reason that your mother can give her grandchild a home-made teddy without anybody caring but if she wants to sell them to strangers she needs to get them CE tested.

The main reason for CE certification is to ensure uniformity, so that corners cannot be cut to give any particular organisation or country an advantage over the rest.
The other reason is government paranoia over interference from electrical equipment.

The world was not a significantly safer place prior to CE certification

 

[Elemental]

I have just reread all the posts on this thread. Apart from a few who see nothing wrong in the situation, the general consensus is his motives are commendable but his methods leave him and his clients open to danger. No personal invective, no "I've reported him to the MCA", just a fair amount of sympathy and admiration at his chutzpah.

Then why does the OP bring it to public attention and then all the others discuss it in public? If such 'sympathy and admiration' is present why not PM or email him to suggest that he may be breaking the rules. I have no problem with the rules existing and encourage everyone to follow them - I do. I have no problem with businesses being publicly discussed (remember the Hot Liquid debacle?) but why embarrass one chap trying to defray the cost of his sailing?. If you wouldn't walk up to him in a bar, and say it to his face, then I don't think you should discuss it on here.

 

[Tranona]

Have you ever exceeded the speed limit? Its illegal, potentially dangerous and a lucrative source of funds for HM Constabulary.

The MCA would take a far keener policing role if they were able to levy fines for every infringement. (hope I haven't given them an idea)

Honestly, the idea that every citizen must abide by every rule & regulation drawn up by faceless bureaucrats without proper consultation is beyond a joke.

The MCA is a prosecuting authority and, based on the information on the website concerned would have no difficulty in getting a conviction through the courts. However, they are unlikely to do this as pretty sure a call from them would solve the problem. The law is very clear. There are two tests which determine if the activity is leisure or commercial. One is to do with the status of the people concerned - that is the relationship between the owner and crew in relation to the specific voyage and the second is the level of monetary contribution involved. This offering would fail the "leisure" test on both counts. It is clear that he is not advertising for crew to help him sail his boat on a voyage that is for his pleasure as he is offering more such as teaching to sail and asking for a financial contribution way above the cost specific to that voyage such as food, fuel and food.

If you read the long earlier thread on the subject and in particular the guidance letter from the MCA you will come to the same conclusion.

This cavalier attitude to sensible and well established law shown by some here is astonishing.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Honestly, the idea that every citizen must abide by every rule & regulation drawn up by faceless bureaucrats without proper consultation is beyond a joke.

The Lounge is over there >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (away to the right).

 

[JumbleDuck]

The main reason for CE certification is to ensure uniformity, so that corners cannot be cut to give any particular organisation or country an advantage over the rest.

Indeed. And that's why there are coding and qualification requirements for commercial boating operations, too.

The world was not a significantly safer place prior to CE certification

Indeed not. It was significantly less safe: lead paint on toys, for example.

 

[Sandyman]

The MCA is a prosecuting authority and, based on the information on the website concerned would have no difficulty in getting a conviction through the courts. However, they are unlikely to do this as pretty sure a call from them would solve the problem. The law is very clear. There are two tests which determine if the activity is leisure or commercial. One is to do with the status of the people concerned - that is the relationship between the owner and crew in relation to the specific voyage and the second is the level of monetary contribution involved. This offering would fail the "leisure" test on both counts. It is clear that he is not advertising for crew to help him sail his boat on a voyage that is for his pleasure as he is offering more such as teaching to sail and asking for a financial contribution way above the cost specific to that voyage such as food, fuel and food.

If you read the long earlier thread on the subject and in particular the guidance letter from the MCA you will come to the same conclusion.

This cavalier attitude to sensible and well established law shown by some here is astonishing.

Absolutely spot on.

 

[awol]

Then why does the OP bring it to public attention and then all the others discuss it in public? If such 'sympathy and admiration' is present why not PM or email him to suggest that he may be breaking the rules. I have no problem with the rules existing and encourage everyone to follow them - I do. I have no problem with businesses being publicly discussed (remember the Hot Liquid debacle?) but why embarrass one chap trying to defray the cost of his sailing?. If you wouldn't walk up to him in a bar, and say it to his face, then I don't think you should discuss it on here.

There is nothing I have written that I would not say to the man's face. He chose to advertise on eBay, and like many other nautical eBay offers that tickle the thoughts of an OP it was posted on here and was discussed. If it had been an acceptable scheme I (and I suspect many others) would be looking closely at it as a means of defraying our own costs. I have considered something similar to the extent of sitting the Yachtmaster practical, taking the first aid and sea survival courses (happy to discuss my views on their value) and half-heartedly costing the requirements for coding my boat. It is possible that this thread may have come to the attention of someone who had been contemplating something similar and has now added to his knowledge.

 

[ianj99]

The MCA is a prosecuting authority and, based on the information on the website concerned would have no difficulty in getting a conviction through the courts. However, they are unlikely to do this as pretty sure a call from them would solve the problem. The law is very clear. There are two tests which determine if the activity is leisure or commercial. One is to do with the status of the people concerned - that is the relationship between the owner and crew in relation to the specific voyage and the second is the level of monetary contribution involved. This offering would fail the "leisure" test on both counts. It is clear that he is not advertising for crew to help him sail his boat on a voyage that is for his pleasure as he is offering more such as teaching to sail and asking for a financial contribution way above the cost specific to that voyage such as food, fuel and food.

So what Tranona? Just because some bureaucrats have decided where to draw a line separating leisure from commercial, does not mean the general public are automatically endangered.
Where are the statistics that show the need for the controls?

From a public safety point of view, it would make more sense to require everyone to be qualified before being allowed to own even a dinghy and I'm beginning to get the impression that many on here would welcome that.

 

[jerrytug]

So what Tranona? Just because some bureaucrats have decided where to draw a line separating leisure from commercial, does not mean the general public are automatically endangered.
Where are the statistics that show the need for the controls?

From a public safety point of view, it would make more sense to require everyone to be qualified before being allowed to own even a dinghy and I'm beginning to get the impression that many on here would welcome that.

Exactly

 

[Tranona]

So what Tranona? Just because some bureaucrats have decided where to draw a line separating leisure from commercial, does not mean the general public are automatically endangered.
Where are the statistics that show the need for the controls?

From a public safety point of view, it would make more sense to require everyone to be qualified before being allowed to own even a dinghy and I'm beginning to get the impression that many on here would welcome that.

What kind of world do you live in that assumes laws are unnecessary? There is nothing contentious about this particular law which has been in place for a very long time. The only issue is about exactly where the line between the two is drawn as the law lays down the principles rather than prescribing specifics. However, it is not difficult to make a judgement based on individual circumstances.

Neither you, nor I - or any other individual has the right to ignore a law just because we do not like it personally. We can have an opinion, just as you seem to have, but nobody has to justify the law to you. If you don't like it and want it changed, lobby parliament to change it.