Is it possible to save [15%] on a new hull by buying directly from a builder at a boat show?

[Bouba]

When building your relationship with the dealer, always hint that the boat you want is temporary, and your ultimate plan is to get a big expensive boat of the same brand

 

[Black Sheep]

Is anyone else wondering about SouthWales? S/he's a new member, is arguing vehemementy about boat buying, but seems to be talking solely theoretically from a zero knowledge base.
Or is it a troll?

No cause for wonder.

There's always a few new members who argue vehemently about some topic while appearing to be talking "solely theoretically from a zero knowledge base". It's what happens on forums. And is totally understandable - when you enter a new field, you are very enthusuastic, and you sometimes think you can see (with the benefit of your fresh external view) some glaring problems with the way the old timers do things.

Usually, more knowledge and experience will show why the old timers have the best answer (for now....). But just occasionally the newcomer has a point.

I make no judgement on whether SouthWales has a point or not. But it isn't a cause of wonder that s/he is here arguing vehemently for something that seems so obvious to him/her.

 

[SouthWales]

Keep wondering if it makes you feel better.

 

[SouthWales]

When building your relationship with the dealer, always hint that the boat you want is temporary, and your ultimate plan is to get a big expensive boat of the same brand

Old school tricks...

 

[SouthWales]

No cause for wonder.

There's always a few new members who argue vehemently about some topic while appearing to be talking "solely theoretically from a zero knowledge base". It's what happens on forums. And is totally understandable - when you enter a new field, you are very enthusuastic, and you sometimes think you can see (with the benefit of your fresh external view) some glaring problems with the way the old timers do things.

Usually, more knowledge and experience will show why the old timers have the best answer (for now....). But just occasionally the newcomer has a point.

I make no judgement on whether SouthWales has a point or not. But it isn't a cause of wonder that s/he is here arguing vehemently for something that seems so obvious to him/her.

As I said earlier this morning, perhaps chartering is the glaring answer here and am figuring it out at my own pace.

Edit; and is an RFQ tool on the RYA website too much for ask?

 

[MapisM]

So I belong to a member-run tennis club - the club belongs to (is affiliated with) something called the LTA. Think of it as an association of tennis clubs across Britain.
LTA is terrific, they provide knowhow, cheap insurance (collective bargaining), dead cheap tennis balls, rackets and other disposables (again, collective bargaining), wimbledon tickets, leagues, junior talent spotting, etc....

So, why don't you cut LTA and ask Dunlop to supply you tennis balls at an even cheaper price?

 

[SouthWales]

Wh

So, why don't you cut LTA and ask Dunlop to supply you tennis balls at an even cheaper price?

Why would I ? The LTA is already bargaining on my behalf.

I get the cynicism in your message but the point is actually very easy: if the market is captive with dealers being an integral part of the supply chain, why not making them compete for business?

 

[Durley245]

Wh

Why would I ? The LTA is already bargaining on my behalf.

I get the cynicism in your message but the point is actually very easy: if the market is captive with dealers being an integral part of the supply chain, why not making them compete for business?

As the grumpy boat builder on here anyway., and as a tennis player myself, let's not get on the LTA either. That's for another forum to moan about them.. I guessing LTA have the market to themselves on tennis balls. just like certain boat dealers , they have the market to themselves with very little or no competion.

 

[Bouba]

I am no friend of boat dealers, been let down too many times. But...
When you buy a car from an Internet supplier and bypass the dealer, the car arrives not quite so shiny and bits of protective plastic covering various parts. These things are part of the dealer preparation. With boats it’s different.
I’m not sure that my boat arrived at the dealer with its inboard engine. It certainly didn’t have a flybridge helm. If I’d specced a genny or air con, passerelle etc the dealer puts it together. They do more than a group of enthusiasts would have the facilities to do. Include the forklifts and cranes it gets more and more difficult to do it yourself

 

[SouthWales]

I am no friend of boat dealers, been let down too many times. But...
When you buy a car from an Internet supplier and bypass the dealer, the car arrives not quite so shiny and bits of protective plastic covering various parts. These things are part of the dealer preparation. With boats it’s different.
I’m not sure that my boat arrived at the dealer with its inboard engine. It certainly didn’t have a flybridge helm. If I’d specced a genny or air con, passerelle etc the dealer puts it together. They do more than a group of enthusiasts would have the facilities to do. Include the forklifts and cranes it gets more and more difficult to do it yourself

Fair enough, but then again we can RFQ any spec sheet for other things, why not amongst boat dealers?

 

[MapisM]

Why would I ? The LTA is already bargaining on my behalf.

I get the cynicism in your message but the point is actually very easy: if the market is captive with dealers being an integral part of the supply chain, why not making them compete for business?

My cynicism was driven by your approach.
You came here asking how to outsmart all other buyers of new Bénéteau Group boats, and then you compared that with the purchase of tennis balls.
I told you how to save money on boats, and I put my money where my mouth is, because I bought the boat where I'm living at one fifth of the price that was invoiced to her first owner.
Next question?

 

[ari]

Companies like Sealine have abandoned the 19ft and up boat market for 33ft and above because it's simply not possible to compete with mass producers like Jeanneau and Beneteau.

The alternative is to hang on in there like Westerly, Moody etc did in the yacht market against the onslaught of mass produced cheaper alternatives from the French, and end up the same way.

Bust.

I agree it’s hard to make the smaller boats profitably, but if Jeanneau / Beneteau can, why cant they?

Economies of scale. The Beneteau group is absolutely massive! 27 production sites, over 8,000 employees, 17 brands (not just Beneteau, they own Jeanneau, Lagoon, Excess, Prestige, Monte Carlo Yachts, Four Winns, Glastron, Scarab, Wellcraft and more).

There was just no way that a small business with a few hundred employees on an industrial site in the Midlands could hope to compete. Which is why Sealine as it was, is no more and is now owned by Hanse and built in Germany.

The other big (by UK standards) brands like Princess and Sunseeker completely abandoned the sub 40ft market and took flight to a luxury position. Princess once had a range that ran from 26ft - 45ft, Sunseeker used to build boats you could pop on a trailer and tow behind a car (Mustang 20, Sovereign 17 etc).

Expecting these brands to compete with the Beneteau Group would be a little like expecting Morgan to start building a car to rival the Ford Focus.

 

[ari]

Is anyone else wondering about SouthWales? S/he's a new member, is arguing vehemementy about boat buying, but seems to be talking solely theoretically from a zero knowledge base.
Or is it a troll?

There is a slightly Happy ring of familiarity to the posting style...

 

[[178529]]

As I said earlier this morning, perhaps chartering is the glaring answer here and am figuring it out at my own pace.

Edit; and is an RFQ tool on the RYA website too much for ask?

Why

Fair enough, but then again we can RFQ any spec sheet for other things, why not amongst boat dealers?

Nothing to stop you writing an rfq and sending it to as many dealers or manufacturers as you want. You won't get a single reply.
If you want a new boat you'll have to pay for it. If you are worried about 20k on a 120k plus purchase then you shouldn't be buying a boat, given the downstream costs.
If you want to forgo a dealer commissioning the boat and the support that might, or might not, bring for a few quid saving then you are better off sticking to buying tennis balls on the cheap.

 

[SouthWales]

I told you how to save money on boats, and I put my money where my mouth is, because I bought the boat where I'm living at one fifth of the price that was invoiced to her first owner.

and how did you manage to do that?

 

[Sticky Fingers]

I agree with Seejay. Go for a used boat, if you want to save some some money.

...Though TBH the only reliable way to save money with boats is by not buying them at all!

...
I told you how to save money on boats, and I put my money where my mouth is, because I bought the boat where I'm living at one fifth of the price that was invoiced to her first owner.
...

...

and how did you manage to do that?

You not even reading the posts on your own thread?

 

[MapisM]

and how did you manage to do that?

Buying a used boat is the short answer.
In a bit more detail, investing months travelling just about anywhere in Italy, and in a few cases also abroad.
Eventually inspecting more than 70 boats that on paper could suit my wishes.
But without ever hoping to find such thing as a free lunch, if you see what I mean.

 

[jrudge]

There are flaws to this, however much of course does go on of its own accord.

Dealers have territories. They cannot ( in theory ) sell outside of that territory, but this is easy to get around. They deliver it to a port in their area and part of the deal is is stays there for a short while. Customers do naturally ask several dealers ( assuming that they have several dealers) for a price. This is not an RFQ this is simply shopping around. This was rampant with the likes of Fairline. So you ask several dealers for their best deal including trade in etc and pick the best price. You may or may not factor in local support.

So far so good.

I assume ( and I could be wrong) that the mass production builders will have a fleet office that will deal with the likes of Sunsail who want to buy large volumes of the same boat - large volumes - not 1, 2 or 3 but 50. Maybe they do go via a dealer, but I would be surprised. This makes up a tiny % of sales of motorboats - probably more so with sail.

Where it falls down is that with few exceptions the manufacturers dont make enough of the things to have an incentive to deeply discount to get volume - as they cant provide volume. Tennis ball manufactures can churn out as many as you wish. It would not be possible for a customer to order more than the global supply of the things. Fairline got itself into a mess as it simply had to sell boats to pay the wages. So it discounted to the dealer accordingly as it had nil choice. No sale, no wages, no business.

So when you have limitless supply ( some car brands qualify for this) you can indeed sell 50 at 2% margin and be happy. The sale was not much effort and you got a decent profit for the effort you put in. Boats are not like this as they are either built to order ( how Fairline now do it) or will never exist in sufficient volumes other than say sailing boats to charter operators.

The margin on a new boat is generally circa 25%. The dealer is usually required to hold some stock ( and per the question above can I be a dealer - simplistically the answer is yes but you will need to make a decent commitment to the manufacturer. They are wise to the man who wants a boat discount and says he wants to be a dealer - this is old news.

From this margin - and this depends if he is stocking it or not - he has to moor it, insure it, finance it ( I ran the Lombard division that did marina stock financing and the finance isn't cheap ) allow the customer discount, pay his overheads and make a profit. He may also have to move it to a boat show injuring costs. There is also the big one. If it does not sell it is last years model. That will take 10% off straight away! So is there margin, yes. Can they discount yes. Is there much in it? No - which is why som many dealers have failed or pulled out.

There is the assumption of extraordinary profits and limitless supply within the OPs question and that does not exist.

 

[Durley245]

There are flaws to this, however much of course does go on of its own accord.

Dealers have territories. They cannot ( in theory ) sell outside of that territory, but this is easy to get around. They deliver it to a port in their area and part of the deal is is stays there for a short while. Customers do naturally ask several dealers ( assuming that they have several dealers) for a price. This is not an RFQ this is simply shopping around. This was rampant with the likes of Fairline. So you ask several dealers for their best deal including trade in etc and pick the best price. You may or may not factor in local support.

So far so good.

I assume ( and I could be wrong) that the mass production builders will have a fleet office that will deal with the likes of Sunsail who want to buy large volumes of the same boat - large volumes - not 1, 2 or 3 but 50. Maybe they do go via a dealer, but I would be surprised. This makes up a tiny % of sales of motorboats - probably more so with sail.

Where it falls down is that with few exceptions the manufacturers dont make enough of the things to have an incentive to deeply discount to get volume - as they cant provide volume. Tennis ball manufactures can churn out as many as you wish. It would not be possible for a customer to order more than the global supply of the things. Fairline got itself into a mess as it simply had to sell boats to pay the wages. So it discounted to the dealer accordingly as it had nil choice. No sale, no wages, no business.

So when you have limitless supply ( some car brands qualify for this) you can indeed sell 50 at 2% margin and be happy. The sale was not much effort and you got a decent profit for the effort you put in. Boats are not like this as they are either built to order ( how Fairline now do it) or will never exist in sufficient volumes other than say sailing boats to charter operators.

The margin on a new boat is generally circa 25%. The dealer is usually required to hold some stock ( and per the question above can I be a dealer - simplistically the answer is yes but you will need to make a decent commitment to the manufacturer. They are wise to the man who wants a boat discount and says he wants to be a dealer - this is old news.

From this margin - and this depends if he is stocking it or not - he has to moor it, insure it, finance it ( I ran the Lombard division that did marina stock financing and the finance isn't cheap ) allow the customer discount, pay his overheads and make a profit. He may also have to move it to a boat show injuring costs. There is also the big one. If it does not sell it is last years model. That will take 10% off straight away! So is there margin, yes. Can they discount yes. Is there much in it? No - which is why som many dealers have failed or pulled out.

There is the assumption of extraordinary profits and limitless supply within the OPs question and that does not exist.

Absolutely correct. Could not agree more.

 

[SouthWales]

There are flaws to this, however much of course does go on of its own accord.

Dealers have territories. They cannot ( in theory ) sell outside of that territory, but this is easy to get around. They deliver it to a port in their area and part of the deal is is stays there for a short while. Customers do naturally ask several dealers ( assuming that they have several dealers) for a price. This is not an RFQ this is simply shopping around. This was rampant with the likes of Fairline. So you ask several dealers for their best deal including trade in etc and pick the best price. You may or may not factor in local support.

So far so good.

I assume ( and I could be wrong) that the mass production builders will have a fleet office that will deal with the likes of Sunsail who want to buy large volumes of the same boat - large volumes - not 1, 2 or 3 but 50. Maybe they do go via a dealer, but I would be surprised. This makes up a tiny % of sales of motorboats - probably more so with sail.

Where it falls down is that with few exceptions the manufacturers dont make enough of the things to have an incentive to deeply discount to get volume - as they cant provide volume. Tennis ball manufactures can churn out as many as you wish. It would not be possible for a customer to order more than the global supply of the things. Fairline got itself into a mess as it simply had to sell boats to pay the wages. So it discounted to the dealer accordingly as it had nil choice. No sale, no wages, no business.

So when you have limitless supply ( some car brands qualify for this) you can indeed sell 50 at 2% margin and be happy. The sale was not much effort and you got a decent profit for the effort you put in. Boats are not like this as they are either built to order ( how Fairline now do it) or will never exist in sufficient volumes other than say sailing boats to charter operators.

The margin on a new boat is generally circa 25%. The dealer is usually required to hold some stock ( and per the question above can I be a dealer - simplistically the answer is yes but you will need to make a decent commitment to the manufacturer. They are wise to the man who wants a boat discount and says he wants to be a dealer - this is old news.

From this margin - and this depends if he is stocking it or not - he has to moor it, insure it, finance it ( I ran the Lombard division that did marina stock financing and the finance isn't cheap ) allow the customer discount, pay his overheads and make a profit. He may also have to move it to a boat show injuring costs. There is also the big one. If it does not sell it is last years model. That will take 10% off straight away! So is there margin, yes. Can they discount yes. Is there much in it? No - which is why som many dealers have failed or pulled out.

There is the assumption of extraordinary profits and limitless supply within the OPs question and that does not exist.

Very interesting.
Let me start by saying that I am new to boating, but experienced with asset financing like yourself.
I see boat sellers acting in 2 distinct capacities:
1) Principal dealers or selling stock they own
2) intermediaries or brokers with no principal risk or any of the costs associated with warehousing.

Cambrian Yachts in Swansea is quite transparent with that regards.

I started the thread with that second model in mind - it is difficult to justify paying 25 or 30% for a dealer to record an order and pass it through upstream to manufacturing for future delivery (i.e. forward order), with non of the risks that you highlighted.

I ask again, why can I not RFQ a boat of this kind, and pick it up from Scotland if need be?