Is it just me or are all modern boats completely horrible ?

Baggywrinkle said:
Just out of interest, what says the collective forum wisdom about X-Yachts, Beneteau First or J-Boats? ... are they cruisers, racers, or cruiser racers?
Click to expand...
X-yachts... XP is the closest thing they have to a cruiser racer. Definitely gone more cruisery recently, especially with the demise of the XP33, which really was a race boat. The XP44 does turn in some results, but holy mackerel they are expensive. The 38 is over £300k ex VAT.

Benetau first - the current line up is a bit discontinuous. The 27 and smaller are the seascapes re-branded after benetau bought the brand. I'd call them race boats with a lid. The new 53 (which started this thread) I'd call a cruiser racer, but for the sort of racing where you have a hostess on board, not thrashing round the Solent. At 15.5 tonnes, it's pretty heavy by modern standards. The club swan 50 is 8.5 Tonnes by comparison, admittedly it's a bit smaller, but not 7 tonnes smaller. Sail areas are very similar. It will be very interesting to see if Beneteau continue the range smaller into the C/R market they made their own with the 40.7 and more recently the 40.
J- Boats. From the current range the 97E, 112E, 122E are definitely cruiser racers. You can imagine buying one to cruise, and they're all extremely competitive. The 88, 99, 111 are really race boats with a token interior.
 
flaming said:
X-yachts... XP is the closest thing they have to a cruiser racer. Definitely gone more cruisery recently, especially with the demise of the XP33, which really was a race boat. The XP44 does turn in some results, but holy mackerel they are expensive. The 38 is over £300k ex VAT.

Benetau first - the current line up is a bit discontinuous. The 27 and smaller are the seascapes re-branded after benetau bought the brand. I'd call them race boats with a lid. The new 53 (which started this thread) I'd call a cruiser racer, but for the sort of racing where you have a hostess on board, not thrashing round the Solent. At 15.5 tonnes, it's pretty heavy by modern standards. The club swan 50 is 8.5 Tonnes by comparison, admittedly it's a bit smaller, but not 7 tonnes smaller. Sail areas are very similar. It will be very interesting to see if Beneteau continue the range smaller into the C/R market they made their own with the 40.7 and more recently the 40.
J- Boats. From the current range the 97E, 112E, 122E are definitely cruiser racers. You can imagine buying one to cruise, and they're all extremely competitive. The 88, 99, 111 are really race boats with a token interior.
Click to expand...

My J44 was a very fast cruiser and an even faster racer....Spinnaker reaching rev3.jpg
 
dom said:
So much for the statistics, indeed. The post-2000 average UK wind speed from April to September is 7.5kts and this has been stable for over 50 years. Those who only sail in the winter months would experience somewhat stronger winds of c.9.5kts average. A little stronger in Western and Northern shores.

Do the maths and by your calculations those recreational sailors must be heavy-weather seeking!

As for the notion that, "the term seaworthiness is usually expounded by folk who've never had need to call upon it".
Any data for that, or did you just make it up also ? :)
Click to expand...
I am not talking about meteorological averages , but when people actually chose to go sailing (these numbers were published by Dehlius Clasing in the book "Motorsegler"). Last summer was rougher, I admit, and we got caught out in it gusting to fifty between Guernsey and Brehat. The next statement is inversely proportional to the quoted numbers, but I generally find, this is empirical of course, that most sailors have never been out in the open sea in a small boat in winds over F9 , never mind, F10. Do a survey, if you like.
 
Refueler said:
Can I ask a question ?

I'm 64 yrs old and still capable of pushing a boat to its limits ... but TBH - I now prefer a more leisurely sail.

The days of standing with one foot on the cockpit bench - other foot on cockpit sole while on beam ends washing windows are not my style anymore.

Am I alone ?
Click to expand...
No, you're not. Like me, you've reached the stage where the effects of salt water damage to the brain are finally wearing off.
 
Refueler said:
;)

I can still appreciate the adrenaline rush of pushing the envelope ... but enjoying a nice sail and safely home is my game now ..
Click to expand...
Indeed. My wife still comes sailing with me, bless her, and she is convinced the statistics do not apply to us; as a result we've upped our light-weather game.
 
Laminar Flow said:
I am not talking about meteorological averages , but when people actually chose to go sailing (these numbers were published by Dehlius Clasing in the book "Motorsegler"). Last summer was rougher, I admit, and we got caught out in it gusting to fifty between Guernsey and Brehat. The next statement is inversely proportional to the quoted numbers, but I generally find, this is empirical of course, that most sailors have never been out in the open sea in a small boat in winds over F9 , never mind, F10. Do a survey, if you like.
Click to expand...


Okay, so what you are saying is that your personal experience supports an educated guess as to when most sailors sail. Empirical research, be it quantitative or qualitative, is a bit more rigorous than that !

As for the constant references to heavy weather you have experienced; this is a yachting forum after all where peeps have experienced most weathers in most boats - intentionally or otherwise :)
 
Daydream believer said:
Yes I am aware of the science of base to height ratios etc etc & I am aware that it is said that at certain angles a square sail shape may be more efficient. But in my defence did make the point that the rig would be heavy because even with a taller mast I would expect the bermudian rig to be lighter to handle. That has to be considered in the "efficiency test". The science does not take into account the shape of the sails around the gaff in practice ( at least, not that i am aware) Neither does the science take into account the entire rig- once again I have not taken the interest to read up on that but I someone will comment - if only to prove me wrong. Just sticking a sail up & saying that is the most efficient is no good -As I said ( & you seem to have conveniently ignored) It has to be used & one has to consider all aspects of how it is flown & how it is handled. Ask the owner of a junk rig why he thinks his sail is best. Did the science then consider what happens to the c of effort on other points of sail & the effect on the hull? Did it consider how easy it is to reef/gybe/trim?
If gaffs were so good then we would be still using them; & we are not. Yes I know about fat heads on race sails or just simple roaches on mainsails, but they are much lighter & have a far cleaner shape than a sail suspended on on a gaff. The batten system is different. It would not surprise me if ( from my sailboard days) that the aerodynamics of the fathead is somewhat different to that of a gaff sail.
I admit to not having sailed gaff rigged boats, only gunter rigged dinghies at the early age of 11-16 years, & one boat for a few hours in later years. My experience of them is nil. So I am at a disadvantage to those who have.
But I did say in my first comment that I expected others to disagree & if I was wrong in my opinion then so be it. But with respect I would point out that sticking ones' finger on a single point in some scientific result & saying " that proves my point" can sometimes lead to error. One needs to examine the wider view
Click to expand...
"One needs to examine the wider view", said he with, self admittedly, no experience of the matter.
 
dom said:
Okay, so what you are saying is that your personal experience supports an educated guess as to when most sailors sail. Empirical research, be it quantitative or qualitative, is a bit more rigorous than that !

As for the constant references to heavy weather you have experienced; this is a yachting forum after all where peeps have experienced most weathers in most boats - intentionally or otherwise :)
Click to expand...
I have no doubt that some of the people posting here have experienced such (storm) conditions, but I'm certain that not everyone who posts on this or any other forum has. I have indeed experienced it(several times) and I didn't like it one bit. Frankly, I found it terrifying and expensive (things break) and on at least three occasions we were far enough out to be beyond any reasonable expectation of rescue and once with a crippled rig. Anyone who seeks this 'intentionally" needs his head examined. I only brought this up, because seaworthiness in yacht design is a major consideration and I always find it astonishing how people can hold such strong opinions on things they have no real knowledge of.
As to when most people sail, I quoted my source. If you have better numbers, please let me know.
 
anoccasionalyachtsman said:
It's way more complicated than that.... this is the text that accompanied the original picture. Watch out for surprising villages. Probably Hill Head in your case.

from Lyckad båt i ny tappning

Boat new premiere sail , as one of the world's first newspapers, Bavaria Cruiser 37 a windy late summer day outside Henån on Orust. The harsh west winds give good pushes and hopes for a decisive test sail.

Bavaria agent Bernt Lindquist is in the notes and despite the wind gusts rolls out the full cross "because it looks so boring on the pictures with torn sail". I can only agree. However, after some really nice half-wind ropes, which give fast pictures in the breezy wind around Nötevik's boats, however, the too large sail surface for the current wind force (villages up to 17 m / s) should punish. When a surprising village strikes and the guests are not alert enough to slam the big shot, the unexpected result is that the rudder loses its grip in the water and the helmsman suffers a huge upset.

The entire control system, including rudder blades, mechanism and pedestals from Danish Jefa, is otherwise well-dimensioned and gives a good feeling, so there is no major reason for normal holiday sailors to be worried about such mishaps. At least not as long as you tear down in time. With both roll mast (optional for SEK 25,000 including roll size seal) and roll mock (standard), all possibilities are given to adjust the sail surface and not to limit the limits as Båtnytt does during tests and photo sessions. It is also the configuration with which nine out of ten Bavaria owners sail. The mast body is also equally long, whether you choose conventional mast or roller mast.
Click to expand...
I hate being hit by a village (while sailing!), especially ones that catch you by surprise. Don't you just love Google translate?
 
Laminar Flow said:
I have no doubt that some of the people posting here have experienced such (storm) conditions, but I'm certain that not everyone who posts on this or any other forum has. I have indeed experienced it(several times) and I didn't like it one bit. Frankly, I found it terrifying and expensive (things break) and on at least three occasions we were far enough out to be beyond any reasonable expectation of rescue and once with a crippled rig. Anyone who seeks this 'intentionally" needs his head examined. I only brought this up, because seaworthiness in yacht design is a major consideration and I always find it astonishing how people can hold such strong opinions on things they have no real knowledge of.
As to when most people sail, I quoted my source. If you have better numbers, please let me know.
Click to expand...
If you sail the Atlantic West to East then statistically you are likely to have to deal with a storm at some point. I suspect the reason why lots of AWB owners who are happy to do the E to W run opt to ship their boats back is because they don't fancy the more arduous trip home. We will be heading back next year. I cant say I am looking forward to it but the boat is definitely up to it
 
Laminar Flow said:
"One needs to examine the wider view", said he with, self admittedly, no experience of the matter.
Click to expand...
I have enough experience of life to not let someone point their finger at one isolated item & tell me, "that is the rule. " I have seen that gymic more than once .
I have also been about long enough to make an assessment of what one might expect based on what i have seen elsewhere. But i am also careful to qualify that assessment
 
geem said:
If you sail the Atlantic West to East then statistically you are likely to have to deal with a storm at some point. I suspect the reason why lots of AWB owners who are happy to do the E to W run opt to ship their boats back is because they don't fancy the more arduous trip home. We will be heading back next year. I cant say I am looking forward to it but the boat is definitely up to it
Click to expand...

I crewed on a delivery of an 80' Maxi from here (Barbados) to England in 2012, with a 2 day stop in Horta on the way.
We had a wonderful trip up to the Azores, flying kites most of the way. Although we did receive a terse text from our excellent weatherman (Lenseman of this parish) when we were a week out telling us to 'stop - hurricane ahead'. If he hadn't told us about it, we would have sailed straight in to it probably. I think it was the first hurricane of the season, in May.
And we got fairly well pasted by a storm halfway between Horta and Plymouth - although to be fair we knew about it before we set off, but skipper reckoned we could cope with it ok...... he decided that we would run before it under double reefed main - think he wanted to see what sailing an 80' Laser would be like.
So we did, and we were surfing down big seas - our maximum surf speed was 37 knots (I saw it simultaneously on log and GPS - I was at the chart table). This was in about a Force 7, maybe gusting 8. Later on the inevitable happened, and we gybed accidentally after stuffing the bow into a wave and stopping quickly - the main boom broke, and most of it ended up in the sea. We were still sailing at 10 knots downwind despite this huge sea anchor. And because we were going so slowly (relatively), a big wave dumped on us and took away one of our liferafts. It was literally like being underneath a waterfall.
We managed to get the boom back on board, got the main down, hoisted a small staysail and took off under perfect control for Plymouth. That night the winds got up to F 10 gusting 11, the seas were a good 9 m. / 30' (but very long wavelength) - and the boat behaved beautifully. We were still surfing at high speed (my best surf that night was 29 knots).
Along the way we passed (or rather we screamed past) a smaller yacht that was hove to.
And we carried this staysail and the wind the whole way to Plymouth.
 
Laminar Flow said:
I have no doubt that some of the people posting here have experienced such (storm) conditions, but I'm certain that not everyone who posts on this or any other forum has. I have indeed experienced it(several times) and I didn't like it one bit. Frankly, I found it terrifying and expensive (things break) and on at least three occasions we were far enough out to be beyond any reasonable expectation of rescue and once with a crippled rig. Anyone who seeks this 'intentionally" needs his head examined. I only brought this up, because seaworthiness in yacht design is a major consideration and I always find it astonishing how people can hold such strong opinions on things they have no real knowledge of.
As to when most people sail, I quoted my source. If you have better numbers, please let me know.
Click to expand...

We've had 9's a few times not by choice, and 8's more times than I can remember. Roughest rides we've had though have been lower wind speeds against spring tides around N Wales and Irish Sea. Where we sail now, 5s & 6s in afternoons are more the norm.
 
Pissing competitions aside, I'm still curious to know what long-keeler Laminar currently sails.

I like the motion of long keels and have come to terms with cramped accommodation... just sometimes wish mine was 5ft longer!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top