Is it just me or are all modern boats completely horrible ?

[Refueler]

I believe the cost of rectification was one of the factors leading to Westerly going bust in 1980/81.

Maybe ... but when I spoke to the guys - they talked about the cost of developing the Riviera and also the frequent change of owner / management being the final nail.

Blimey - was it that long ago !! Only seems like yesterday I would come out the pub after a pint with the lads ..

 

[Refueler]

deleted

 

[Rappey]

I believe the cost of rectification was one of the factors leading to Westerly going bust in 1980/81.

I thought it was westerly v moody so they were both trying to up their game in terms of interior luxury, but got wiped out by the much cheaper production boats like Bavaria..
Maybe a bit of both ?

 

[Refueler]

I thought it was westerly v moody so they were both trying to up their game in terms of interior luxury, but got wiped out by the much cheaper production boats like Bavaria..
Maybe a bit of both ?

I think change of market ... if you go back in time Moody really caught the Charter Boat market with their 31 many years ago ... made a mint at it ... then of course as all do - expand the range - with the Eclipse 38 and 43 really pushing the build costs. Jeanneau and Bendy filling the charter boat market .. offering a faster but still comfortable boat.
Westerly like Moody had its loyal following with sturdy boats .. but were they able to keep up with others ?

I think in some ways they did compete with each other ... ie Riviera vs Eclipse ... as example. If you look at the price they wanted for them at the time ? Were they too high a price ?

I think the Eclipse 43 is a very nice boat and I would have one tomorrow ... but the price second hand I think reflects what I suggest about their pricing when they were new. I don't care that you could have Laura Ashley furnishings in it ...

All personal opinion of course.

 

[Concerto]

The Bavaria Match series are the only Bavaria boats which suffered keel problems, and Bavaria reacted by recalling and strengthening the small number of boats affected. (You may be old enough to remember that Westerly did a similar thing when Centaur keels started falling off.

I never heard of problems with the Centaur keels, but early Griffin twin keel boats did have a problem after one broke off and all were recalled for strengthening. No doubt this information was fed back to the designer and incorporated in later designs. All yacht designs are a continual balance of hull form and available types of materials, plus the accountants drive to minimise costs to maximise profits.

 

[Refueler]

I never heard of problems with the Centaur keels, but early Griffin twin keel boats did have a problem after one broke off and all were recalled for strengthening. No doubt this information was fed back to the designer and incorporated in later designs. All yacht designs are a continual balance of hull form and available types of materials, plus the accountants drive to minimise costs to maximise profits.

Centaurs - you had to measure the keel to hull angle. Second check inside at the actual bolts and large washers used. An owner could in fact go years with a problem not knowing ... literally.

 

[Concerto]

I believe the cost of rectification was one of the factors leading to Westerly going bust in 1980/81.

Sorry another comment without foundation. Yes it did cost to repair the Griffins, not Centaurs. The real reason was Westerly had bought the freehold of their premises on a £2M overdraft in 1979 . They went to Boot in January 1980 with a wide range of boats including the recently released Griffin and the brand new Fulmar. They had full order books due to most European dealers having lots of forward orders. Unfortunately the exchange rate moved against the Pound and made continental boats 25% cheaper. At Boot they did not take any orders and all forward orders from their dealers were cancelled. When the bank heard of this, they recalled the overdraft. All that could happen for the company was to go into administration. Most of the staff were sacked and a few staff kept on to complete all existing orders. During administration, the company remained profitable making it possible for it to be sold as a going concern into a new company. This was told to me a couple of years ago by the managing director of Westerly at the time of the collapse.

 

[Concerto]

I think the Eclipse 43 is a very nice boat and I would have one tomorrow ... but the price second hand I think reflects what I suggest about their pricing when they were new. I don't care that you could have Laura Ashley furnishings in it ...

All personal opinion of course.

My late parents bought a new Ecplise 43 after getting bored with a motor boat and sold it. There was a waiting list of over a year at Moodys on the Hamble, but the Princess dealer at Brighton Marina had an allocation of an Eclipse 43 without a buyer. Well now they did and my parents took delivery 3 months later. Nice boat to live on and could cover lots of miles in a breeze. She was one of the first deck saloon yachts and it was brilliant sitting and looking out the windows.

 

[rszemeti]

I very much dislike the modern boats with square windows and interiors that look like the packaging from an iPhone.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Ah, how refreshing to read a post where the writer clearly understands the limits of new boat design. I read an interesting article by an America yacht designer who explained that in light winds these modern wide arse designs are slower simply because the hulls are not strong enough to accommodate a tall mast and sail area to take advantage of the hull shape. The keels are too short and they dont carry enough ballast at the tip of keel. They are a copy of the Imoca 60 style of hull in appearance only.
If we all believed the blurb written in the sailing magazines about the new Bav/Ben/Jen being faster than its predecessor, boats should be doing a hundred mph by now. In my experience of cruising between islands here in the Caribbean, modern cruising boats in full cruising trim, as we are with bikes, paddleboards, large dinghies, large outboards and tonnes of other gear all travel at about the same speed as older designs. A modern cruising boat of the same size has never overtaken us with wind on the beam as we invariably get here between islands.

One might also add that the flat flounder wedge type has more wetted surface area and requires the added complication of twin rudders to maintain any sort of control. After decades of desperately reducing wetted area it does seem like a step backwards. Fact is: in light going a heavy conventional design will still outsail a light design with the same SA / D ratio. Since the cruising cargo precludes planing under normal circumstances it pretty much levels the playing field. Any cruiser who manages to plane his wedgy will get himself a divorce, if he survives the sea conditions necessary to achieve that. A

 

[Daydream believer]

Ridas himself remarked that despite the wealth of info and ideas given to the design owners - they modified and tweaked it till basically it was a non seller. Instructing Ridas to build as they drew up.

I agree its only a small and one off example - but it happened.

I do not get your point. You are saying that a group of people designed and built ugly boat & it did not sell. So they lost out. If you are saying that the builder was investing in a design that he knew was no good then he deserved to fail
Along comes a company who understands the market & successfully builds & sells boats for that market- You have supported my comments that Benny know their market- have you not

No need to argue ... its just debate of points of view.

I used to live in Tallinn .... there's a good story in there as well about Soviet Submarines - but another time ..... and I got friendly with RIDAS.

They built a very nice fast race cruiser Ridas 35 ... and then a 31. Along with an agent in UK - we tried to market in UK ... but I couldn't invest or commit enough to the venture.
But we had long conversations about how he decided on such size and design. Basically it was identified that at that time 31 - 36 ft was a popular size and would sell better. I asked why he didn't build a 26ft'r as a starter boat and he was honest and said too expensive per foot to build against possible sale price. Eventually he did produce a 26 ... very fast boat as well ... but it did not sell in numbers even though 26 in those days was popular. Market want did not translate into sales.

Another boat then appeared Northstar (I may have the name wrong - its a few years ago and trying to remember its designation) ... but it was large enough to enter trans globe events ... based on ideas submitted by ocean racing crews and then built by Ridas. I was invited on board when it was commissioned in Pirita Harbour.
Ridas himself remarked that despite the wealth of info and ideas given to the design owners - they modified and tweaked it till basically it was a non seller. Instructing Ridas to build as they drew up.

I agree its only a small and one off example - but it happened.

So you have proved my point. the designer does not create the market. the buyer does. Your "designer" Ridas boat did not sell, because the buyer did not like it. So they went for a boat that they did like ( presumably) . Benny second guess what people want( they do not tell them what they want, like the Ridas designer tried to do) & they do that pretty well. Hence, they sell boats

 

[PaulRainbow]

I do not get your point. You are saying that a group of people designed and built ugly boat & it did not sell. So they lost out. If you are saying that the builder was investing in a design that he knew was no good then he deserved to fail
Along comes a company who understands the market & successfully builds & sells boats for that market- You have supported my comments that Benny know their market- have you not

So you have proved my point. the designer does not create the market. the buyer does. Your "designer" Ridas boat did not sell, because the buyer did not like it. So they went for a boat that they did like ( presumably) . Benny second guess what people want( they do not tell them what they want, like the Ridas designer tried to do) & they do that pretty well. Hence, they sell boats

I was thinking exactly the same.

 

[Laminar Flow]

I treated myself to the vid, again. 7kts in just over 6kts true. In relative speed that works out to a factor of 0.99. This is similar to a traditional 6-meter class. Our tub reaches a relative speed factor of 0.92 in similar conditions and without the "performance" package and a cloud of laminate with a code zero (4.9kts in 8kts apparent( 6,8kts true) at 60 degrees). I just love doing the numbers, they make everything - well, relative. I much admire that saloon though; if I only were into ballroom dancing ... On a different note, I have always wondered about the sharp corners on the rectangular ports in regards to creating potential stress risers. I'm just glad I'm not a yacht designer. Imagine having to continuously come up with new ideas within a system of increasingly diminishing returns. In the end, all you are doing is catering to momentary styling fads and rearranging the furniture. Someone urgently needs to let the sea know that everything has changed. A

 

[Babylon]

...I'm just glad I'm not a yacht designer. Imagine having to continuously come up with new ideas within a system of increasingly diminishing returns. In the end, all you are doing is catering to momentary styling fads and rearranging the furniture. Someone urgently needs to let the sea know that everything has changed. A

Well expressed. That's what its currently all it about - houses, furniture, cars, gadgets, boats, typesetting, etc - minimalist cost-rationalisation as if we're all just machines ourselves, our humanity stripped out and the faculty of aesthetic difference ignored.

 

[Resolution]

Sorry another comment without foundation. Yes it did cost to repair the Griffins, not Centaurs. The real reason was Westerly had bought the freehold of their premises on a £2M overdraft in 1979 . They went to Boot in January 1980 with a wide range of boats including the recently released Griffin and the brand new Fulmar. They had full order books due to most European dealers having lots of forward orders. Unfortunately the exchange rate moved against the Pound and made continental boats 25% cheaper. At Boot they did not take any orders and all forward orders from their dealers were cancelled. When the bank heard of this, they recalled the overdraft. All that could happen for the company was to go into administration. Most of the staff were sacked and a few staff kept on to complete all existing orders. During administration, the company remained profitable making it possible for it to be sold as a going concern into a new company. This was told to me a couple of years ago by the managing director of Westerly at the time of the collapse.

That's pretty much the story I was told by a forumite who was working for them at the time. He may be on shortly to confirm or expand in detail .

 

[Refueler]

I do not get your point. You are saying that a group of people designed and built ugly boat & it did not sell. So they lost out. If you are saying that the builder was investing in a design that he knew was no good then he deserved to fail
Along comes a company who understands the market & successfully builds & sells boats for that market- You have supported my comments that Benny know their market- have you not

So you have proved my point. the designer does not create the market. the buyer does. Your "designer" Ridas boat did not sell, because the buyer did not like it. So they went for a boat that they did like ( presumably) . Benny second guess what people want( they do not tell them what they want, like the Ridas designer tried to do) & they do that pretty well. Hence, they sell boats

Ridas was paid by the syndicate and never lost on the boat. My point is that the designers took the info they had and altered to what they considered was 'wanted by market' ... Ridas in fact advised them against it. Ridas as I say was paid a contractor to build. Win or lose for the designer / syndicate was not his problem. He did a brill job of the build - to their specs.

The boat itself was in fact a very nice looking boat - had racing lines and when trialled - proved very fast. But did not sell.

The other point is to illustrate that Designers do take it own hands at times ...

I never said Bendy was not successful ... nor did I say they do not know their market ... extrapolation of my comment to say I TEND TO THINK designers and consultants ... is not saying what you appear to think you read.

 

[Momac]

The interior fit out of many boats has , for some years , certainly moved toward simplicity and this is not decided by style but more by cost.
Look at caravans and motorhomes and they tell the same story.

 

[Refueler]

So you have proved my point. the designer does not create the market. the buyer does. Your "designer" Ridas boat did not sell, because the buyer did not like it. So they went for a boat that they did like ( presumably) . Benny second guess what people want( they do not tell them what they want, like the Ridas designer tried to do) & they do that pretty well. Hence, they sell boats

Not trying to PROVE a point - I am just supporting my view about designers and consultants.

Ridas NEVER designed that boat ... he was contracted to produce the hull and deck / internal mouldings.

As to Ridas other boats - he had been building those long before the syndicate contracted him.

 

[Refueler]

Sorry another comment without foundation. Yes it did cost to repair the Griffins, not Centaurs. The real reason was Westerly had bought the freehold of their premises on a £2M overdraft in 1979 . They went to Boot in January 1980 with a wide range of boats including the recently released Griffin and the brand new Fulmar. They had full order books due to most European dealers having lots of forward orders. Unfortunately the exchange rate moved against the Pound and made continental boats 25% cheaper. At Boot they did not take any orders and all forward orders from their dealers were cancelled. When the bank heard of this, they recalled the overdraft. All that could happen for the company was to go into administration. Most of the staff were sacked and a few staff kept on to complete all existing orders. During administration, the company remained profitable making it possible for it to be sold as a going concern into a new company. This was told to me a couple of years ago by the managing director of Westerly at the time of the collapse.

Fair enough - from one of those who helped the collapse ... it leaves out the history of repeated change of management / backing that Westerly suffered ... each taking their toll ...
I had many friends working there who lost out ... a very loyal bunch of workers. Locally long before final collapse was a topic of conversations.

As to Centaurs - many most certainly had extra rovings put in by owners- not by Westerly. Years ago - it was a common discussion to be heard let alone knowing many who had it done. I know of various Konsort owners who did similar as well ...

 

[scruff]

The benny in the OP looks like a lovely way to spend a pleasant holiday to me.

My wife enjoys coming sailing but is more interested in her kindle and the scenery than tweaking the sails. Having the control lines led back to me at the helm sounds great, I can tweak to my hearts content. The boat sails at 7kts in 6kts of wind = more sailing / less motoring = less likelihood of seasick wife = happier cruise. The galley looks nice and secure in a seaway whilst still having ample space to make a nice meal - who wants to be fed tinned junk food / fray bentos when out sailing these days? The forecabin has good sized double bed and can enjoy the scenery with coffee in bed in the morning.

What's not to like? Other than having to multiply the new boat fund by a factor of 10...