Is cruising yacht insurance expensive?

[Gixer]

Just did my renewal with MS Amlin and £219 for fully comp on a 35ft steel boat from 1986.

No mention of any survey requirement after it was run passed the underwriters.

I’m with them as well and have been for years. 1990 boat valued at £18000, premium is about the same. Never been asked for a survey and have queried this every year, read and reread every bit of policy documents both online and in paper.

 

[goeasy123]

The portion or your insurance costs that is not public liability, in actuarial terms, is in effect paying twice the value of your vessel + repairs + surveys + 6% over your term of ownership. As you pay your annual premiums you are making a series of bets that you have a high probability of losing. Just buy 3rd party.

 

[RJJ]

In principle, is requiring a boat survey every few years much different from requiring a car MOT every year?

Yes. MOT is a legal requirement; car insurance is invalid if you don't get it, with any insurer; and that includes the third-party bit that's also a legal requirement.

For yachties, your marina (and any marina you visit, if you ever check the T and C which none of us do) might require third party. But otherwise you don't (although it's jolly well recommended).

MOT is required both by your existing and any new insurer. Survey, not so clear. It's not the requiring a survey that's the problem, it's that the new insurer requires it but not the existing.

 

[LadyInBed]

Just did my renewal with MS Amlin and £219 for fully comp on a 35ft steel boat from 1986.

No mention of any survey requirement after it was run passed the underwriters.

When I googled them, yacht insurance comes up with haven knox johnston. Has MS Amlin taken them over?

 

[ip485]

Yes. MOT is a legal requirement; car insurance is invalid if you don't get it, with any insurer; and that includes the third-party bit that's also a legal requirement.

For yachties, your marina (and any marina you visit, if you ever check the T and C which none of us do) might require third party. But otherwise you don't (although it's jolly well recommended).

MOT is required both by your existing and any new insurer. Survey, not so clear. It's not the requiring a survey that's the problem, it's that the new insurer requires it but not the existing.

Not so, your car insurance is not necessarily invalid without an MOT.

 

[Graham376]

If you haven't had a recent survey, unless premium suddenly double, the time to change insurers is usually when existing one wants a survey before renewal.

 

[Concerto]

From this I can't see why they demand a survey. The only one of those likely to be related to something that could be picked up in a survey would be 'ingress of water'

Would you buy a secondhand boat from a private seller without a survey? I very much doubt it. I could have bought my current boat without a survey due to own experience spanning 50 years and my low opinion of many surveyors by excluding so many elements of a boat like engine, rigging, sails, electrics, etc. I knew a survey was useful to confirm my opinion of the condition and an insurnce company would require sight of one. Yet you expect an insurer to to cover you, someone they do not know, for all risks without any independent checks that your boat is in a seaworthy condition. You may consider your boat is in a good state of repair, but an independent report is necessary to establish a starting point with an insurer. Any comments by a surveyor may require remedial work to be undertaken in a set time frame. This quote is from the first page on my insurance document.
"Information you should provide
You must tell us immediately if any of the information is incorrect or changes. If we have wrong information this may result in an increased premium and/or claims not being paid in full, or your insurance may not be valid and claims will not be paid."
Please note "claims will not be paid". You want their insurance, then you must comply with their rules. If one of their rules is a survey, then you must comply or they will not insure you.

If you are looking to insure without obtaining a survey, then you can get third party or use a company who will be highly unlikely to payout on any claim.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Y Insurance having closed down or will do shortly means me changing Insurers, who all want an out of water survey, which is £250+ before even the surveyor arrives. The just 3rd party route is certainly an option, especially as I cannot see much sailing this year.

Y Yacht insurance is not closing down, it's been taken over. No need to change insurers.

 

[Gixer]

When I googled them, yacht insurance comes up with haven knox johnston. Has MS Amlin taken them over?

I was originally insured with Haven, who then became part of Knox Johnston which has now become MS Amlin.

 

[dolabriform]

Y Yacht insurance is not closing down, it's been taken over. No need to change insurers.

Apart from the doubling of premiums

 

[PaulRainbow]

Apart from the doubling of premiums

Have they doubled ?

Are you insured with them and has yours doubled?

 

[dolabriform]

Have they doubled ?

Are you insured with them and has yours doubled?

I was insured with them and my renewal was pretty much double. I've now changed insurers

 

[PaulRainbow]

I was insured with them and my renewal was pretty much double. I've now changed insurers

Was that as a result of the change of ownership ? Mine isn't due until April, i'd hope it isn't going to double, might drop them a quick line.

 

[dolabriform]

Was that as a result of the change of ownership ? Mine isn't due until April, i'd hope it isn't going to double, might drop them a quick line.

Nothing had changed, apart from they are no longer using the same underwriters..

Give me a call if you want more info

 

[PaulRainbow]

Nothing had changed, apart from they are no longer using the same underwriters..

Give me a call if you want more info

Will do.

 

[Resolution]

This is a breakdown from Navigators and General.

"Navigators & General claims data from 2008 to 2018, revealed the most common claims they handled were as follows:

• A boat colliding with another vessel (31% of claims handled)
• Storm damage (21%)
• Grounding or collision with underwater obstacle (20%)
• Ingress of water (15%)
• Theft of equipment, fittings and personal effects (13%)

The costliest type of claim was storm damage, with an average cost per claim of £17,600. Ingress of water, including sinking, leads to typical claims worth £11,200; grounding or collision with underwater obstacle, £10,000; collision with another vessel, £3,000; and theft, £1,800."

Source Navigators & General Insurance

That’s a very interesting breakdown. No mention of loss of mast? I would have thought that mast failure while sailing would cost at least £5 to £10 grand , so rather substantial. Maybe masts falling down while cruising are very rare?
My interest is acute since my standing rigging is now 15 years old , replacement as a matter of good housekeeping has been strongly suggested, and the cost will be approx £10,000 (rod rigging, 42 footer).

 

[Gary Fox]

Have they doubled ?

Are you insured with them and has yours doubled?

I'm have been insured with Y for years, and they have paid a claim with no quibbles.
Topsail has taken over the brand and retained the excellent office staff.
The Topsail quote was about £100 cheaper than last year's Y cover!
I queried the exact, legal policy wording and it's almost identical cover..
No survey needed to change over, for either of my very old boats, so it's a no brainer to stay with them

 

[neil1967]

I'm have been insured with Y for years, and they have paid a claim with no quibbles.
Topsail has taken over the brand and retained the excellent office staff.
The Topsail quote was about £100 cheaper than last year's Y cover!
I queried the exact, legal policy wording and it's almost identical cover..
No survey needed to change over, for either of my very old boats, so it's a no brainer to stay with them

I wish that were the case for me - yes same helpful staff, but on renewal earlier this month, both policies offered (new underwriter) were significantly more expensive. After some negotiation they were able to come up with a quote from MS Amlin that was about 10% higher than last year. No requirement for a survey. I did look at GJW and they offered a slightly cheaper quote, but would have required a survey before the next renewal in 2022 - they have a policy of requiring a survey every 10 years.

 

[peter gibbs]

Unless you have a survey that's less than three years old, it seems impossible to change insurer, so I have been with mine for eight years based on the original purchase survey of a 40 year-old GRP boat. And to be fair the premium has risen by about £100 over that time so it's now £400.
But when I tried shopping around, as I do with all other policies for vehicles and property, I came across the survey blocker which means that the insurers leave us with Hobson's choice. Or I could spend (say) a couple of hundred quid and would that save the cost, even if amortised over three years? And would such a survey reveal necessary work and cost - for example, how many of us replace standing rigging on a routine basis?
Is this an anti-competitive ? A truly competitive market could put pressure on premiums - not that I know what the claims record is for yacht policies, but we are not in the habit of suffering regular catastrophic storms. Does anyone know what is the largest type of claim? Rigging failure? Fire? Grounding and loss?
Are we happy to leave matters as status quo and pay up and trust the insurers? Or could we have a limited survey - presumably rigging is their main concern - and checks of seacocks, sails and general hull condition using a pro-forma survey for a much reduced fee? And if so would it make a blind bit of difference to the premiums?
Just the lock-down musings of an idle sailor, watching the rain.

The world is waking up to the fact that most insurance is a one way trip for your money. You can reduce your premiums by taking an excess. Worth considering so you only claim when a big one hits. Don't make intermediate claims - your record will show and the base quotation will rise. Insurers aim to recover any payouts, over time. NCD do not affect the base quotation - a common misunderstanding.

Staying with the same insurer is worth something - a claim is likely to be more favourably assessed if there's a good history. And frequent surveying is usually waived.
Berthing in marinas, Local sailing range and winterisation ashore are signals of care that reassure insurers. Keeping all receipts and having a maintenance history can help too. RYA quals have some bearing as well.

You probably knew all that. 1% of hull value is pretty good for a premium these days, 0.75% can be achieved with the above restrictions. Worth trying to save another £50 ? weigh that against total loss of the boat - the big one - likely you'll want to settle for another year with your present insurer etc.

I would, and do.

PWG

 

[Gibeltarik]

I was originally insured with Haven, who then became part of Knox Johnston which has now become MS Amlin.

MS-AMLIN have sold their boat insurance division to Aston Lark who have re-branded their boat insurance as HKJ.
MS-AMLIN is still underwriting Aston Lark policies.