Is Croatia worth the agro?

[BrianH]

Hi Barnacle
I am not sure if you have that right , it on the size of boat not the amount of visitors you may have over the summer ,

Hi Vic, greetings!

You are quite correct, I probably explained badly. The fee is indeed on size of boat, which when I asked the Umag harbourmaster how a previous per-head/per-night tourist tax could change to be a cost levied on a single-hander to be the same cost as a six-crew group on my size of boat, he tried to justify it by saying the cost no longer was the actual entry crew size but reflects the potential I could accommodate during my cruise.

I tried to argue that could easily be calculated as my crew-list would need modifying if anyone joined and the sojourn tax then paid to reflect the additional tourist, but he began to get angry so I dropped it.

 

[RichardS]

I'll try to firgure out how it is calculated for sailing boats.

In 2014 mine was calculated as: Navigation fee = 20 * Length + 2 * Engine Kilowatts

For my 11.97 Metre yacht and 2 x 22KW engine = 20 * 11.97 + 4 * 22KW = HRK327.40 plus HRK 110 Light Dues, HRK 40 Sea Fees, HRK 20 Chart Fees so HRK497.40 in total

I think the 2015 fees were the same as 2014, as was the Soujourn Tax for 2015 over 2014.

Richard

 

[ronsurf]

- very clear water (is it the lack of sand?)

It's the lack of rivers.

 

[Hardmy]

Interesting theory. Do you know where this comes from? I do ask, because this isn't really my impression. There are several rivers carrying sizeable volumes of water discharging in Croatia. Some can be navigated.

The lack of sand theory, is only what locals tell you.

Anyway, I would be happy to learn the truth from a well researched study!

 

[sailaboutvic]

A lack of plastic bags and bottle and people tipping their garbage in the sea goes a long way to it being so clean .

 

[alexsailor]

Sometimes lots of garbage comes with current or Jugo wind (blowing from SE) from Albania where they have no respect towards sea...
http://www.jutarnji.hr/plaza-trstenik-opet-zatrpana-smecem-iz-albanije/910198/?foto=1

 

[syneraida]

My wife and I had a lovely time cruising Croatia, but we were also fined for "late" checkin, I would suggest that the officials are VERY official and fast to hand out fines, but the cruising grounds are nice and outside of August (I believe) very quiet, we went in August because of my work commitments and found the place to be overwhelmed by Italians, that said we still had a lovely time.

We're 55ft LOA and 2 weeks cruising "permit", tax etc. cost around £150 if I remember correctly, not exactly cheap, but as has already been mentioned you can anchor for free in plenty of places, in fact I we anchored everywhere and never once asked to pay, I believe the rule is that if you are more than 150 meters from a concessionary area (mooring balls, marina etc) then they are not entitled to charge you to anchor, that said most of the good (shallow) anchorages are already filled with mooring balls. We have 50 meters of chain and it often was not enough to anchor where we really wanted. Also expect to have to run a line ashore, even if you don't need the line you may have to use one to stop yourself swinging into other boats when/where its busy.

If you want to read the whole story please see here....

http://syneraida.com/?p=4331

and

http://syneraida.com/?p=4246

and

http://syneraida.com/?p=4258

As regards the whole water clarity discussion going on above, I will add my 2 cents and suggest that it is neither the lack of sand or lack or rivers, but most likely the fact that as a body of water the Adriatic does not experience large tidal effects also weather is often calm and swell is little, leading to marginal movement of water below sea level, thus clear waters.

 

[Hardmy]

Thanks for those links! You have a really nice website and boat.

As regards "to AIS or not to AIS", your story is sad indeed. I heard many similar stories than yours (like unintentional leaving of the 12NM zone for a couple of hours during normal sailing), everytime connected with fines.

Even if you disconnect your AIS, you can expose yourself to similar problems. They have observation towers like this one in Cavtat equipped with radars&co. In this particular place, they will check whether you properly cleared-in/out from Cavtat or Dubrovnik. I know that in some cases they call passing yachts on the VHF and ask where the paperwork has been completed. They check, and revert to you that everything is OK. What happens if not? Will they send a patrol boat to intercept you?

Anyway, rules and laws are to be obeyed to, especially in Croatia (as a foreigner. Yes it is a bit cliché but there is a little truth in that). There is also a little pride to be heard when they say: "we have our border firmly under control".

 

[alexsailor]

When speaking of Croatia, a man should take in consideration that Croatia was once part of Yugosalvia and military object appear on all outer islands (specially Vis, Lastovo, Žirje, Dugi otok...). So they are constantly following you.
And it is very common to get fined for something a police officer could just say: have a nice holiday...
But no!
Yes law is a law but come on...

The case around Cavtat is that Croatians are making problems with strict implementing of rules since they are bordering Montenegro. Also a part of once the same state. And the border between Croatia and Montenegro is not determined (like it is not with Slovenia).
So that is also one of the reason why they are so annoying.
Maybe that is also why super-yachts go to a modern marinas in Montenegro (and cheaper fuel of course

Enjoy Croatia but keep all the papers with you, don't break the law (and that is really stupid to say how to behave in a EU country on your hollidays) and keep an eye open where you anchor.

 

[Hardmy]

BTW (and sorry for the thread drift), Croatia is also scattered with derelict military objects. One can develop a kind of hobby to chase / find them.

Abandoned garrison on a unhabited island:

There are also dozens of those boat shelter:

 

[RichardS]

BTW (and sorry for the thread drift), Croatia is also scattered with derelict military objects. One can develop a kind of hobby to chase / find them.
There are also dozens of those boat shelter:

That looks like the one at the NW end of Lastovo. I motored in to the end with the dinghy with the my boys and explored inside. Very interesting.

Richard

 

[Hardmy]

You have an eye, because there is at least a dozen of them! My boat fits entirely into them and its funny to give a honk inside.

It is the one with the yellow circle. There is also one in the red circle:

 

[Birvidik_Bob]

For three scurrilous and totally unsubstantiated calumnies on cruising Croatia try:

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/birvidik/?xjMsgID=281490

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/birvidik/?xjMsgID=281592

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/birvidik/?xjMsgID=283926

Must update it when I get time

Bob

 

[Metabarca]

I'm with Alexsailor on this one. I've been cruising in Dalmatia since it was firmly part of Yugoslavia, have known it for 50 years and what I have see is a wonderful cruising ground being milked for the charter market. The country is not interested in cruisers because they tend to spend less, even though they might actually visit out of season. Everything but everything is geared to taking money off you, most often without a smile. And at high prices in a country in which a teacher earns €400 a month if he's lucky. Officialdom treats me badly when it sees the Italian flag on my boat and marginally better when it sees my British passport. As a nation, it is nationalistic and has a large sense of inferiority which makes officialdom bully Slovenes (who are better off) and Italians (who in the form of Venice built every village from north to south and introduced the modicum of good cooking one can find) - In this regard, I find the information board on Vis hilarious: 1000 years of history ignored because it doesn't fit in with the agenda).
But we must make a distinction between the Dalmatians, who may be Slav but have lived on the coast for centuries, intermingling with the Venetians, and the inland Croatians who are doing much of the spoiling (according to the Dalmatians and Istrians themselves).
In short, geographically it's wonderful but I haven't sailed there for four years. I'll be there this summer; we'll see if things have improved. I must admit that when in Trogir in my car, I found the young owners of a restaurant far more open; perhaps we need to wait for the older generation to die off.
For those who say that all you need do is comply with the rules, I would say that in today's Europe, in what is after all the tourist sector, one would expect the rules to be pretty much the same throughout the Continent: in Croatia they are arbitrary and expensive, something one would expect in Communist East Germany, not in the 21st-century Mediterranean.

 

[RichardS]

You have an eye, because there is at least a dozen of them! My boat fits entirely into them and its funny to give a honk inside.

It is the one with the yellow circle. There is also one in the red circle:

That's interesting because it's the one in the red circle I'm familiar with but it looks just the same. I guess they must all be built to a standard pattern.

Richard

 

[RupertW]

I'm with Alexsailor on this one. I've been cruising in Dalmatia since it was firmly part of Yugoslavia, have known it for 50 years and what I have see is a wonderful cruising ground being milked for the charter market. The country is not interested in cruisers because they tend to spend less, even though they might actually visit out of season. Everything but everything is geared to taking money off you, most often without a smile. And at high prices in a country in which a teacher earns €400 a month if he's lucky. Officialdom treats me badly when it sees the Italian flag on my boat and marginally better when it sees my British passport. As a nation, it is nationalistic and has a large sense of inferiority which makes officialdom bully Slovenes (who are better off) and Italians (who in the form of Venice built every village from north to south and introduced the modicum of good cooking one can find) - In this regard, I find the information board on Vis hilarious: 1000 years of history ignored because it doesn't fit in with the agenda).
But we must make a distinction between the Dalmatians, who may be Slav but have lived on the coast for centuries, intermingling with the Venetians, and the inland Croatians who are doing much of the spoiling (according to the Dalmatians and Istrians themselves).
In short, geographically it's wonderful but I haven't sailed there for four years. I'll be there this summer; we'll see if things have improved. I must admit that when in Trogir in my car, I found the young owners of a restaurant far more open; perhaps we need to wait for the older generation to die off.
For those who say that all you need do is comply with the rules, I would say that in today's Europe, in what is after all the tourist sector, one would expect the rules to be pretty much the same throughout the Continent: in Croatia they are arbitrary and expensive, something one would expect in Communist East Germany, not in the 21st-century Mediterranean.

I think we may both be right - in that I only know of Croatia in the last 5 years so do not miss how unspoilt it used to be, but see it as a place with much less officialdom than at home in the UK, where marinas and moorings outnumber anchorages. I also found it much better than Greece which seemed anarchic which I don't find relaxing as I don't know whether somebody is really an official or not, or what the protocol is from one harbour to the next.
With Croatia you simply know that if a tap is there the clean water will come out and if there is an electric box then it will work, and amazingly every harbour has laid lines which aren't missing, knotted or cut - so no possibility of crossed anchors.
Just keep marina visits to a minimum - usually to give guests a chance to feel a bit more normal.
I hope you enjoy your return as much as we did, but you may be right about them treating different nationalities in different ways.

 

[BrianH]

I'm with Alexsailor on this one. I've been cruising in Dalmatia since it was firmly part of Yugoslavia, have known it for 50 years and what I have see is a wonderful cruising ground being milked for the charter market. The country is not interested in cruisers because they tend to spend less, even though they might actually visit out of season. Everything but everything is geared to taking money off you, most often without a smile. And at high prices in a country in which a teacher earns €400 a month if he's lucky. Officialdom treats me badly when it sees the Italian flag on my boat and marginally better when it sees my British passport. As a nation, it is nationalistic and has a large sense of inferiority which makes officialdom bully Slovenes (who are better off) and Italians (who in the form of Venice built every village from north to south and introduced the modicum of good cooking one can find) - In this regard, I find the information board on Vis hilarious: 1000 years of history ignored because it doesn't fit in with the agenda).
But we must make a distinction between the Dalmatians, who may be Slav but have lived on the coast for centuries, intermingling with the Venetians, and the inland Croatians who are doing much of the spoiling (according to the Dalmatians and Istrians themselves).
In short, geographically it's wonderful but I haven't sailed there for four years. I'll be there this summer; we'll see if things have improved. I must admit that when in Trogir in my car, I found the young owners of a restaurant far more open; perhaps we need to wait for the older generation to die off.
For those who say that all you need do is comply with the rules, I would say that in today's Europe, in what is after all the tourist sector, one would expect the rules to be pretty much the same throughout the Continent: in Croatia they are arbitrary and expensive, something one would expect in Communist East Germany, not in the 21st-century Mediterranean.

We have usually agreed with our opinions on cruising Croatia, which I have done fairly regularly since 1980 - less the civil war years, of course. I did decide to stop posting my negative impressions, not about the geography ... or even the people, actually, but about a modern European country - EU now even - that had such difficulty in sloughing off the mercenary mentality inherited from its command economy times when it ripped off the milk-cow yotties in desperation to get its hands on any life-saving foreign currency. There's no call for it now and it has subsided somewhat but the legacy lingers on; where else in the EU does a visiting EU-flagged vessel have to fork out so much just to enter its waters.

But you're right Lucian, the new generation certainly makes a difference and I noticed a significant improvement with many of the younger officials in this new millennial. It was to be expected, none of the old guard were fired, the peaked hat brigade that, at a whim, could throw someone in jail to get beaten up for any minor transgression, were still in command and they found it hard to change. The faded photographs of comrade Tito still on the walls of so many harbour offices testified to that.

Enjoy your Croatian cruise this year, I know I will.

Best, B.

 

[alexsailor]

Many of you got it a little bit wrong.
It was not the former Yugoslavia system that produced "problem" generation.
Yes, officials did follow the rules but were not aggressive.

The problem was caused by war in the 90s... And after that many "war heroes" that earned money (robbing, smuggling…), moved to the coast. Those were usually ex soldiers or smugglers from Hercegovina region (part of Bosnia and Hercegovina; in the "mountains").
See Ravni žakan restaurant in Kornati and watch the high speed boats and owners "without a neck"...

Many of soldiers, generals or whatever had nothing to do after the war has ended. So they got employed in police.... You probably figured it out now what I wanna say...

Do not expect that younger generation will be so different. Yes many of them "got the picture" that tourism is not just blue sky and blue water for 100eur/night and now you can find trendy hotels, restaurants etc on the coast and islands.
But nationalism is really a problem in Croatia. And very high unemployment rate. No future at all.
So that is not the recipe for a happy generation. But that is also where Europe is going...
I see many of those problems also in Greece.

Islands have also one problem: drugs…

I want everybody to enjoy Croatia. I do not want to sound like I am against it. No! But sometimes is good to know the facts.
Currently I’m in Slovenian waters, doing some upgrade on the boat. And I am returning to Croatia in April and if everything works out ok I'll spend my summer in Greece. My bar is always open

 

[Metabarca]

Great, see you for a Pelinkovac, then!

 

[alexsailor]

Great, see you for a Pelinkovac, then!

hehe, deal!