Is a license necessary

[oceandrive]

It struck me that in the Med I have never been asked to show a licence for driving a boat.
When thinking further on this point I have covered some serious milage both in the UK and Med and although I have been hauled in by the police , customs, and who ever else at no point has anybody said "have you a license to drive this boat" not even requested sight of an ICC.

Customs seem only interested in who is the captain and where are you from? Where are you going? can we see passports of all on board, anything to declare? No. Adios then.

Police Insurance please, Proof of tax / Vat " Which in most cases they don't understand anyway" Oh and registration docs.

Infact we are boarded in so many ports, that I have now put together the boat registration and insurance into a large binder with all the additions latin legal versions, fancy gold embost Sturge policy stuff in hard back form the lot, just for the pleasure of giving them the lot to do and letting them spend hours paging through it all. Quite funny to watch a couple of Sardinian officials who have stopped you getting off the boat for a pint and some food, spend hours looking for the opropriate bit of detail to compleat their form. but even after all that they never say can we see your licence to drive. even when I kept them at it for three hours.

Is it me or has the license thing ICC, Day Skip,YM and the like just faded out. I know loads of people who hold the appropriate qualifications, commercial and non commercial but only a hand full who have ever had to show them to an official,infact most would not even carry on the boat.

Even insurance companies state an "apropriate qualification" but insure the boat,

So my question is am I seeing a one off situation or is this the normal in the Med either east end or west end?

could it be that their own licensing system and standards are so low that it is deemed not a requirement?

 

[Kawasaki]

On various jaunts into the Med.
France, mainland Spain the Balearics and the Agean.
The one and only time I have been asked for a 'Licence' in fact the Guy was so persistant
Was to hire a 20ft ish kinda Boston Whaler in Port Leucate (SOF) when the ICC was the only bit of paper that would satsfy said Rental Man gentleman!

 

[MapisM]

Quite funny to watch a couple of Sardinian officials who have stopped you getting off the boat for a pint and some food, spend hours looking for the opropriate bit of detail to compleat their form. but even after all that they never say can we see your licence to drive. even when I kept them at it for three hours.
...
could it be that their own licensing system and standards are so low that it is deemed not a requirement?

Trust me, you'd struggle to get an Italian license for helming a boat above 24m LOA, as you are.
And I don't mean you personally, it's just that the exam is EXTREMELY difficult for anyone.

The fact is, that's not what they were interested in.
Stupid as you might think the Sardinian officials are, actually they are not. Not all of them, anyway.
Surely they had grey uniforms with yellow stripes, right? If so, they were the equivalent of HMR&C inspectors, looking for any possible evidence that the boat you were helming was actually owned by some Italian private individuals, nothing else.
Probably, they would have loved to ask also for your license, but they're aware that EU regulations don't require you to hold an IT license to helm a UK boat, even when in IT waters - so why bother?

PS: just to avoid in advance any possible misunderstanding, considering a similar previous debate with some other forumites on this topic: I'm NOT suggesting that a legal requirement for a license, as such, makes a better helmsman. So, pleeease anybody, don't explain me the reasons why the anarchic UK system works nicely, I'm already aware of them...

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Me neither. In the Med I've boated in France, Spain, Balearics, Croatia and a bit in Italy and never been asked by officialdom for a licence and the only people who've asked to see reg documents and insurance are marina staff. Never been asked for proof of VAT either and nobody is remotely interested in my YM certificate

 

[jfm]

It must be a bit random becuase I have been asked twice in about 6 occasions of being stopped.

One time I was driving the tender and speeding (I didn't know there was a limit, and he was being pedantic, in St Trop, and it wasn't MUCH speeding becuase it was only a Yam15hp on a 3.1m RIB) and he asked for my licence which unusually I didn't have. I then lectured him that it was a UK flagged boat so he could get lost with his demand for a licence, and he did.

The other time I was being stopped by douanes in a non VAT paid boat and claimed VAT exemption under French Commercial Boat scheme. They insisted on seeing my YM to catch me out (becuase a commercial boat should generally have a YMC skipper) but I had it so they said ok. Point is, they didn't actually care if I was qualified to drive the boat safely; they were just trying to catch me out on VAT

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

The other time I was being stopped by douanes in a non VAT paid boat and claimed VAT exemption under French Commercial Boat scheme. They insisted on seeing my YM to catch me out (becuase a commercial boat should generally have a YMC skipper) but I had it so they said ok. Point is, they didn't actually care if I was qualified to drive the boat safely; they were just trying to catch me out on VAT

Are you saying that had you not had your YM certificate to show them, they could have demanded VAT Whats this story about in this months MBY about Les Frogs closing VAT loopholes?

 

[jfm]

Are you saying that had you not had your YM certificate to show them, they could have demanded VAT

Nah. They noted it was a commercial boat so asking for YMC is not a bad question for them to ask to see if I was abusing the system. Giving them the YM ticket made them happy. If I had not produced it they might have dug further but ultimately there still wouldn't have been VAT to pay

Whats this story about in this months MBY about Les Frogs closing VAT loopholes?

It was badly reported and if I get a minute I'll email Hugo. The basic gist of the story was along the right lines but the detial was all worng. In 2008 the EU commission started a project to look at Frecnh yacht VAT. In March 2010 they gave France a "reasoned opinion" saying the French commercial boat program is too generous under EU law and asked France to change its law (within 2 months) in order to close the matter. They did not "order" (to use MBY's term) France do anything becuase they have no such powers. Their only redress if France sticks to its guns is to start proceedings at the European court (The Commission is a bit like the police/CPS in this regard - they investigate possible offenders and take them to court but they are neither judge nor jury)

France didn't change its law within the 2 month deadline so the Commission will likely start the court process, I'd guess in next few months or by early 2011 on past form. After another year of arguing France may well be ordered by the court to modify its law, or a compromise could be worked out

I've no idea why this is "news" in a September magazine. The key dates are 2008 start of project; March 2010 EU commission warning to France; May 2010 expiry of deadline. Hardly hot news and very out of date on MBY's part.

By the way, these reasoned opinions from the Commission are not unusual. They typically issue about 6-12 to EACH EU country pa, and have issued several to France in 2010, on things other than yacht VAT. The source doc for the EU Commission's position is here , and there is no more officially published doscumentation on this issue so all else you read is speculation, much inaccurate. There will of course be correspondence behind the scenes twixt the Commission and France, but that is not published at this stage.

This might be the start of the end of half-price detax fuel in France, which would be a nuisance not a game changer. As for VAT on the hull, if you know what you're doing you can still buy a yacht tax free in France, and folks ordering a new boat after March 2010 having read the EU commission's statement will likely have put in place a structure to achieve that.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Interesting. I guess it was an EU 'opinion' that was issued to the UK over the red diesel derogation? Typically the UK rolled over whereas I bet the French would just have ignored it if it was in their commercial interest. I presume that it is French self interest that is driving their opposition to the EU opinion on their commercial boat program? Is it just because they feel it attracts megayachts to French waters or is it protect their fishing fleet or something else?

 

[jfm]

Interesting. I guess it was an EU 'opinion' that was issued to the UK over the red diesel derogation? Typically the UK rolled over whereas I bet the French would just have ignored it if it was in their commercial interest. I presume that it is French self interest that is driving their opposition to the EU opinion on their commercial boat program? Is it just because they feel it attracts megayachts to French waters or is it protect their fishing fleet or something else?

Yup. This one will be interesting becuase there is much vested interest. Towns like Antibes totally run on boats: everyone's job is fixing boats, driving boats, cleaning boats, selling food to boats, applying red tape to boats, etc. They can't tolerate the boats clearing off. When you compare this item to the other things the EU Commission have complained to France about this year (VAT on exhibitions; detailed rules on French fiscal agents for VAT, etc) it's way more interesting and more at stake. Surely plenty of French government officials have FO big yachts in the Cote D'Azur. So it will be interesting. Some kind of compromise will surely be worked out

Nowt to do with fishing fleets/ferries, just luxury yachting. Fishing fleets/ferries are generally VAT free everywhere.

To be fair to UK, the reasoned opinions of the commission are generally well considered and hard to beat in court. And the commission do invariably refer things to court if the alleged offender doesn't mend its ways. So it's better to strike a deal than face the court, usually.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Yup. This one will be interesting becuase there is much vested interest. Towns like Antibes totally run on boats: everyone's job is fixing boats, driving boats, cleaning boats, selling food to boats, applying red tape to boats, etc. They can't tolerate the boats clearing off. When you compare this item to the other things the EU Commission have complained to France about this year (VAT on exhibitions; detailed rules on French fiscal agents for VAT, etc) it's way more interesting and more at stake. Surely plenty of French government officials have FO big yachts in the Cote D'Azur. So it will be interesting. Some kind of compromise will surely be worked out

Nowt to do with fishing fleets/ferries, just luxury yachting. Fishing fleets/ferries are generally VAT free everywhere.

To be fair to UK, the reasoned opinions of the commission are generally well considered and hard to beat in court. And the commission do invariably refer things to court if the alleged offender doesn't mend its ways. So it's better to strike a deal than face the court, usually.

Would that the Spanish authorities had such a common sense attitude to preserving the revenue that boats and their owners bring to their economy

 

[jfm]

Would that the Spanish authorities had such a common sense attitude to preserving the revenue that boats and their owners bring to their economy

Yup. The results are tangible. Consider these 3 things: (i) the Fr VAT exemption is irrelevant to mega yachts say 50m+ that do the Med/Carib circuit, because they bunker in Gib and use TI or IoM or similar to avoid VAT (ii) the Fr VAT exemption is rarely applicable to 50 footers and less (iii) the Fr exemption basically applies to 60-120 footers.

60-120 footers is a massive segment of the high-spend market.

Compare Spain and Fr marinas over the last few years: about the same density of mega yachts; about the same density of sub 50ers; massively more 60-120ers in France. In Antibes my Sq58 was tiny and my 78 wont turn any heads, but when I was in Balearix in 2009 often the 58 was the only >55er in the anchorage and biggest boat in the anchorage, and the 78 would be considerted pretty big and if you berthed a 78 in Mahon you'd be in the top 10 boats by size, roughly. Spain has lost a big chunk of the 60-120 segment and many of those that it has (Jenny Wren and Mr Blue Sky on this forum, frexample) have sailed to Malta to pay Malta lease VAT (I guess...) so not paid spain VAT anyway. So Spain's "let's tax them" approach has not collected tax, as you'd expect for things as mobile as boats, doh!

But you knew all this anyway!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Actually no, I didnt think about that 60-120ft segment. I remember my marina in Palma, Club de Mar, and, come to think of it, you're right. There were many sub 50 footers and many superyachts but not much in between. Even the superyachts were shipping out last season. There were rumours that a few had been boarded and asked for documentation and even if they were totally legit, I suspect the owners asked themselves why they needed the hassle. SWMBO and I last visted in Sept '09 and we were shocked by how empty Club de Mar was. As the article in MBY said, it's beyond stupid

 

[Tranona]

It struck me that in the Med I have never been asked to show a licence for driving a boat.
When thinking further on this point I have covered some serious milage both in the UK and Med and although I have been hauled in by the police , customs, and who ever else at no point has anybody said "have you a license to drive this boat" not even requested sight of an ICC.

Customs seem only interested in who is the captain and where are you from? Where are you going? can we see passports of all on board, anything to declare? No. Adios then.

Police Insurance please, Proof of tax / Vat " Which in most cases they don't understand anyway" Oh and registration docs.

Infact we are boarded in so many ports, that I have now put together the boat registration and insurance into a large binder with all the additions latin legal versions, fancy gold embost Sturge policy stuff in hard back form the lot, just for the pleasure of giving them the lot to do and letting them spend hours paging through it all. Quite funny to watch a couple of Sardinian officials who have stopped you getting off the boat for a pint and some food, spend hours looking for the opropriate bit of detail to compleat their form. but even after all that they never say can we see your licence to drive. even when I kept them at it for three hours.

Is it me or has the license thing ICC, Day Skip,YM and the like just faded out. I know loads of people who hold the appropriate qualifications, commercial and non commercial but only a hand full who have ever had to show them to an official,infact most would not even carry on the boat.

Even insurance companies state an "apropriate qualification" but insure the boat,

So my question is am I seeing a one off situation or is this the normal in the Med either east end or west end?

could it be that their own licensing system and standards are so low that it is deemed not a requirement?

Your experience is typical. If you go on the RYA site you will find a good description of the current situation vis a vis the ICC.

However, some countries - most obvious is Croatia - will not give (sell) you a cruising permit unless you have a recognised licence. You are also likely to encounter difficulties if you have an accident is some countries (Greece is an example) if you are not able to demonstrate competence.

So, on balance it is probably best to have one - bit like a vAT receipt - not a strict requirement but times when it might be useful

 

[timbartlett]

Interesting. I guess it was an EU 'opinion' that was issued to the UK over the red diesel derogation? Typically the UK rolled over whereas I bet the French would just have ignored it if it was in their commercial interest. I presume that it is French self interest that is driving their opposition to the EU opinion on their commercial boat program? Is it just because they feel it attracts megayachts to French waters or is it protect their fishing fleet or something else?

Nope!
When MJF said "yup", I presume he was writing about the commercial boat programme.

The red diesel issue was very simple. There was a derogation in place that allowed the UK (and others) to go on selling low tax fuel to pleasure craft for a limited period. When the expiry date got close, the UK applied for the derogation to be extended. And it was.
And when the extended expiry date got close, the UK went back for another extension, but it didn't try very hard, and this time the rest of Europe said No.

The UK doesn't usually "roll over" to EU rules, nor does France ignore them. What usually happens is that the British civil service simply accepts EU rules and adds them to existing UK ones instead of substituting them. So we end up with far more onerous legislation than anyone else. Then the civil servants blame it all on Brussels.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

However, some countries - most obvious is Croatia - will not give (sell) you a cruising permit unless you have a recognised licence. You are also likely to encounter difficulties if you have an accident is some countries (Greece is an example) if you are not able to demonstrate competence.

No, not true. I bought a Croatian cruising permit in March this year and the harbourmaster was not remotely interested in my YM or ICC. He only asked for the Reg document and proof of insurance. Just as an aside, he refused to accept my insurance policy doc because it was a photocopy and then gleefully sold me me a local policy. Total cost with permit €400. What a rip off

 

[MapisM]

Just as an aside, he refused to accept my insurance policy doc because it was a photocopy and then gleefully sold me me a local policy. Total cost with permit €400. What a rip off

Doesn't sound too bad actually. I would have said that the permit alone for a 53' (as mine is btw) was in the region of €400.
Did they give you the detail of how much was for the permit and how much for the insurance?

 

[Tranona]

No, not true. I bought a Croatian cruising permit in March this year and the harbourmaster was not remotely interested in my YM or ICC. He only asked for the Reg document and proof of insurance. Just as an aside, he refused to accept my insurance policy doc because it was a photocopy and then gleefully sold me me a local policy. Total cost with permit €400. What a rip off

Thats interesting, because there was a long thread on the Liveaboard forum last year when the new rules were introduced, including reference to the website that listed all the acceptable qualifications. The difficulty with copies of insurance documents was also raised.

It is also the advice given by the RYA who try to give members up to date information.

I think all your experience shows is that even when a state has an "official" policy, it is not always enforced by local officials or they might not even be aware of it if the "rules" have changed.

It is similar in Greece, where the law says that anybody skippering a Greek registered vessel needs to be able to demonstrate competence, but, although an ICC is often asked for by Port Police when chartering a boat, some accept different kinds of evidence. One year in Corfu where I have chartered regularly, they decided to have a purge on certificates, and not only did they ask for my ICC as normal but insisted I report in person to the main office on the Port. I gather they got tired of that after a couple of weeks and went back to the normal practice of rubber stamping everything that looked "official".

I think you, like most of us will have discovered that it is best not to question local officials if at all possible and have available all documents they might conceivably ask for.

 

[oceandrive]

Deleted User, Couldn't agree more. I am sat here in Mahon it's the 9th september and there is about a couple of dozen visiting boats. The Spanish have scared everybody away, mainly due to matriculation tax etc. Some will know that I had a charter boat here in Menorca and that was hit by the customs and bonded. At that time there were maybe a dozen legal charter boats working out of Mahon, In my case they released my boat 24hours later only saying that the details had gone to Palma for investigation but I'm afraid waiting for ever to see if you were going to get a 12% TAX and a further 50% fine was not for me. My boat went to Barcelona and straight onto the open market. It's sold and now lives in Turkey.

Personaly I didnt think that they could have imposed the Matriculation as I'm not a resident. but I wasn't going to keep the boat here to find out. Here again it struck me at the time that the whole Matriculation thing was very much the Balearic Goverment rather than the mainland, I took this asumption as everything I was hearing about people being done was within the three islands, I could be wrong but it seemed that way. In Barcelona I had no problems although the boats docs had commercial all over them.

So now in Mahon Empty reastaurants along the port, empty chandlers etc etc

and talking to other visiting skippers not much difference elsware in the Balearics. Maybe the Spanish should take a leaf from the French.

 

[nonitoo]

Back to the OP's point, the only time I have been asked for proof of holding a licence (ICC/CEVNI) was at a lock in the Canal du Nord in France.

He also wanted to see my SSR.

That was the only time in a two month inland waterways trip.

Tom

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Doesn't sound too bad actually. I would have said that the permit alone for a 53' (as mine is btw) was in the region of €400.
Did they give you the detail of how much was for the permit and how much for the insurance?

From memory it was about €80 for the insurance and the rest for the permit