Is a Contessa 32 basically a man cave for Boomers longing for the halcyon days of the 70s?

[flaming]

They are not "fast" and nor are they "slow", chat sites love hyperbole though.

For race results we can reprise post 157 which gives us real figures to mull over. People love subjectivity though, it gives lots of scope for bandstanding nonsense, we can't get around that.

.

.

That wasn’t a chat site, it was a YM article…

Those figures you quoted are somewhat selective… it’s only the contessa on that list that you would call a cruiser racer when new. Also worth noting that for some reason the ISC moved the contessa fleet to start with the ISC fleet as opposed to the IRC fleet. I assume that perhaps some of the contessas only ever race OD so didn’t have an IRC rating. But the issue there is that the contessa sailors are keen, skilled racers, and had the additional motivation of the inter CO32 battle. I somehow doubt the crew of the legend 336 on your list was on the same level… Modern Cruiser racers of similar size to the contessa are simply much, much, faster.

My boat is pretty much the same loa as a contessa. My marina bills will be the same. It’s only 13 years old though. I suspect that experience and enthusiasm wise, we’re pretty similar to the good CO crews.

This year we were nearly an hour faster round the island than the fastest CO32. Despite starting into foul tide and beating against it until after Newtown. Foul tide the later starting contessas wouldn’t have had. They’d have also had tide with them between ventnor and bembridge. Unlike us! We basically punched tide all day except for Newtown to the needles.

Or you could look at the last fastnet to feature a CO32. 2021. A race that featured heavy upwind all the way to the rock. Contessa weather! They were over a day behind a sister ship to my boat at the rock. A whole day.

The world has moved on. Enjoy the classics, there’s a huge amount to love about the CO32 and plenty of other boats from a similar era. But pretending that they can still hang with modern boats also designed for cruiser racing, upwind or down, is just not reality. You only have to look at the ratings to understand that point!

 

[dunedin]

It all depends on the wind strength. Force 4 and more I can easily sail to my handicap, less than that I'm just out for a potter in company. The handicap shows a slow boat by modern standards but if that is a worry don't get a CO32! I hope I'm not upsetting the photographer with this picture from this year's WHYW - my boat is in the background
View attachment 199523

Looks like the crew of the boat in the foreground needs to either point much higher, or ease / dump the mainsheet.
Suspect once they did that you would have to suffer a view of their wide transom until it disappeared,

 

[Lucky Duck]

Including the outboard on the port pushpit, if nothing else I’d be worried about it working loose and falling overboard

 

[dunedin]

Including the outboard on the port pushpit, if nothing else I’d be worried about it working loose and falling overboard

It’s West Highland Week - with multiple passage races. Many boats sail for fun, fully laden with tenders outboards, full tanks etc. One boat we saw also had an SUP on the side deck.
If attached carefully, the outboard won’t fall off - but yes for other events all that sort of stuff would be left in a container at the dock.

 

[westernman]

If you ned to get your kicks from knocking other peoples pride and joy then so be it. Your vessel is a thing of beauty, Honest.

It is ugly. But fast which makes the ugliness entirely forgivable.

 

[potentillaCO32]

They are not "fast" and nor are they "slow", chat sites love hyperbole though.

For race results we can reprise post 157 which gives us real figures to mull over. People love subjectivity though, it gives lots of scope for bandstanding nonsense, we can't get around that.

.

.

Indeed and it all depends in how much wind is blowing.

Last years round the island race they were quicker on all points of sail than most boats the same size as not many non contessas started or finished the race of that size.

 

[potentillaCO32]

It is ugly. But fast which makes the ugliness entirely forgivable.

And to give them their due, incredibly stable upside down.

 

[Mark-1]

Indeed and it all depends in how much wind is blowing.

Last years round the island race they were quicker on all points of sail than most boats the same size as not many non contessas started or finished the race of that size.

Whereas typically on really strong breeze days all you see out are AWBs because only sailing schools and charter boats are out.

 

[Lucky Duck]

It’s West Highland Week - with multiple passage races. Many boats sail for fun, fully laden with tenders outboards, full tanks etc. One boat we saw also had an SUP on the side deck.
If attached carefully, the outboard won’t fall off - but yes for other events all that sort of stuff would be left in a container at the dock.

Sure, but perhaps unfairly I’d assumed the exotic sails indicated a certain level of seriousness

 

[flaming]

Indeed and it all depends in how much wind is blowing.

Last years round the island race they were quicker on all points of sail than most boats the same size as not many non contessas started or finished the race of that size.

They weren’t quicker than us in 24… by a long shot. We were over an hour faster than the quickest CO32. Which as it was a faster lap was an even bigger percentage ahead than we were this year. No kites were flown!

The problem is you’re only looking at the cruiser fleet. In the cruiser racer fleet, things are a little different.

 

[awol]

It’s West Highland Week - with multiple passage races. Many boats sail for fun, fully laden with tenders outboards, full tanks etc.

Perhaps that's the whole point. I and, I hope, other CO32 sailors do it for fun. Pots, pans, plates, gas cylinders, anchors, chain, full(ish) tanks, enough food for at least a week, tools, spares, etc. are normal on my boat and, yes, in the past I have stripped her for Scottish Series (a lot of good that was!) but it's such a faff on a boat which cruises. I can't be bothered (or afford) black sails. Absolutely nothing against people who want to spend their money on "fast" boats but how many are in the arms race to wins?

 

[flaming]

Perhaps that's the whole point. I and, I hope, other CO32 sailors do it for fun. Pots, pans, plates, gas cylinders, anchors, chain, full(ish) tanks, enough food for at least a week, tools, spares, etc. are normal on my boat and, yes, in the past I have stripped her for Scottish Series (a lot of good that was!) but it's such a faff on a boat which cruises. I can't be bothered (or afford) black sails. Absolutely nothing against people who want to spend their money on "fast" boats but how many are in the arms race to wins?

Getting way off topic, but this is a big issue. If you’re serious about winning inshore in the Solent, you will need to strip the boat. But then if you want to go cruising….

But IRC are still writing rules as if everyone races in the IRC nationals one week, then cruises to the West Country the week after…

 

[Chiara’s slave]

And to give them their due, incredibly stable upside down.

A matter of crew skill, and knowing when to back off. And I think you’ll find at least as many CO32s have sunk as Dragonflys have capsized, ie not very many. But not unknown.

 

[westernman]

A matter of crew skill, and knowing when to back off. And I think you’ll find at least as many CO32s have sunk as Dragonflys have capsized, ie not very many. But not unknown.

I could not find any youtube videos of sinking CO32s.

 

[potentillaCO32]

I could not find any youtube videos of sinking CO32s.

You see that upside down stability comes in really handy when waiting for rescue. I don't thinj they look quite so ugly upside down either.

 

[doug748]

That wasn’t a chat site, it was a YM article…

Those figures you quoted are somewhat selective… it’s only the contessa on that list that you would call a cruiser racer when new. Also worth noting that for some reason the ISC moved the contessa fleet to start with the ISC fleet as opposed to the IRC fleet. I assume that perhaps some of the contessas only ever race OD so didn’t have an IRC rating. But the issue there is that the contessa sailors are keen, skilled racers, and had the additional motivation of the inter CO32 battle. I somehow doubt the crew of the legend 336 on your list was on the same level… Modern Cruiser racers of similar size to the contessa are simply much, much, faster.

My boat is pretty much the same loa as a contessa. My marina bills will be the same. It’s only 13 years old though. I suspect that experience and enthusiasm wise, we’re pretty similar to the good CO crews.

This year we were nearly an hour faster round the island than the fastest CO32. Despite starting into foul tide and beating against it until after Newtown. Foul tide the later starting contessas wouldn’t have had. They’d have also had tide with them between ventnor and bembridge. Unlike us! We basically punched tide all day except for Newtown to the needles.

Or you could look at the last fastnet to feature a CO32. 2021. A race that featured heavy upwind all the way to the rock. Contessa weather! They were over a day behind a sister ship to my boat at the rock. A whole day.

The world has moved on. Enjoy the classics, there’s a huge amount to love about the CO32 and plenty of other boats from a similar era. But pretending that they can still hang with modern boats also designed for cruiser racing, upwind or down, is just not reality. You only have to look at the ratings to understand that point!

And so it goes. Round and round in circles. I was not under the impression that the article was a chat site but this is.

As you know, nobody has suggested that the Contessa is faster than more modern boats of a similar type, don't expect people to be amazed at any number of new proofs of what we already know.
What a lot of people don't know who own high windage, heavy, high wetted area boats, dragging wide sterns but with fab accommodation, is that they will be overtaken, in races, by vintage cruiser racers. Not only Contessa's but H boats, Folkboats, Albin Ballads, Sigma 33's and others.
The irony is that many people who like to trumpet this or that boat is "slow" often ssem to have a slower one. It must be small man syndrome.

The figures I posted are not selective on any other criteria then that was the section of the results spreadsheet that showed the finishing time of the first few Contessa finishers. It was an invitation for people to look further if they doubted it, few did.

The thing about subjectivity is that people say: "...that's just your opinion"
Give them figures and they say "I wonder why you picked that year"
Tell them is was a totally unexceptional year they say: "...you have made a selective choice"
Tell them the bottom of the fleets tell the same story as the top and they say: "Ah, that class has better sailors and better equipment"

60 boats in the modern cruiser fleet I quoted - some of them must be making an effort to come somewhere near the top half of the Contessa fleet.

.

 

[Mark-1]

Not only Contessa's but H boats, Folkboats, Albin Ballads, Sigma 33's

Sigma 33 is a total outlier in that list. Incredibly (to me) the Bav is faster according to IRC handicaps:

Sigma 33	0.921
Bavaria 32	~0.965

Mind you, the same source had Bav 34's as slower than Bav 32's so I'm a bit dubious.

 

[westernman]

A matter of crew skill, and knowing when to back off. And I think you’ll find at least as many CO32s have sunk as Dragonflys have capsized, ie not very many. But not unknown.

It seems that 7 out of 750 Dragonflys built have capsized (2021 figures).
Nearly 1%. That seems a lot to me.

With my Hobiecat FX One, I exceeded that figure all on my own in the 4 years or so I had it.

 

[Lucky Duck]

It seems that 7 out of 750 Dragonflys built have capsized (2021 figures).
Nearly 1%. That seems a lot to me.

With my Hobiecat FX One, I exceeded that figure all on my own in the 4 years or so I had it.

I’d started contemplating as a Dragonfly as the next boat but that kind of number, assuming it is accurate, would be a concern.

 

[flaming]

And so it goes. Round and round in circles. I was not under the impression that the article was a chat site but this is.

As you know, nobody has suggested that the Contessa is faster than more modern boats of a similar type, don't expect people to be amazed at any number of new proofs of what we already know.
What a lot of people don't know who own high windage, heavy, high wetted area boats, dragging wide sterns but with fab accommodation, is that they will be overtaken, in races, by vintage cruiser racers. Not only Contessa's but H boats, Folkboats, Albin Ballads, Sigma 33's and others.
The irony is that many people who like to trumpet this or that boat is "slow" often ssem to have a slower one. It must be small man syndrome.

The figures I posted are not selective on any other criteria then that was the section of the results spreadsheet that showed the finishing time of the first few Contessa finishers. It was an invitation for people to look further if they doubted it, few did.

The thing about subjectivity is that people say: "...that's just your opinion"
Give them figures and they say "I wonder why you picked that year"
Tell them is was a totally unexceptional year they say: "...you have made a selective choice"
Tell them the bottom of the fleets tell the same story as the top and they say: "Ah, that class has better sailors and better equipment"

60 boats in the modern cruiser fleet I quoted - some of them must be making an effort to come somewhere near the top half of the Contessa fleet.

.

So... Firstly I've been racing against Contessas for a very long time. I'm well aware of how fast they are. I've told the story on here several times before of a light wind Easter regatta where after everyone else had finished each race, the committee would radio the contessa that was still a leg behind and bribe them with Easter eggs (the traditional prizes for the regatta) to retire. At the prize giving they got more eggs than the winners! They weren't the smallest boat there. And yes, light winds is always going to be a weakness.

Annoyingly, the RTI have removed all those spreadsheets from their website. But I had a thought.... and what do you know.... I've found a copy in my downloads.
If I may say so, it's a some what selective data set you've chosen there... If you look further ahead, there are quite a lot of similar sized boats to the CO32 that were significantly faster. There's a similarly sized Legend ahead for example.

And my own boat (in it's previous ownership) was again roughly an hour faster.

But you really mustn't underestimate the difference the crew makes. Just for example, in 2023 (which again was a pretty standard RTI) there were 3 1010s (like mine) Us, with our regular practiced crew. A boat with a great skipper who gets top results but who went on charter for the day and sailed it much more like a cruiser, and another who are good sailors, but only got the boat about 2 weeks beforehand. We beat the new crew by an hour and 15 minutes. And the charter crew by nearly an hour and a half. There was 2 hours and 20 minutes between the 1st and last contessa that year.

To expect the average once a year racer in their Bavaria or Hanse or Legend etc to be able to beat the crews of Drumbeat, or Assent etc round the island... It's never going to happen. They won't have tuned the rig, they won't be as good at sail trim, they're unlikely to be practiced at tacking on shifts etc. Kite work will be pedestrian... You're not going to be winning a 30 something boat CO32 fleet round the island race unless you're really very good. Drop a top Contessa crew onto that Hanse etc, and it will be different. Drop that Hanse crew on a CO32, and they're in the middle of the pack at absolute best.. Getting to the front of a competitive fleet is really, really hard. And you're comparing the people at the absolute front of a big OD fleet to people doing 1 race per year in their cruising boat.....

In 2017, there were 25 CO32s. With a 1 hour 40 spread 1st to last. So maybe to attempt to correct for an "average " crew that we (frankly generously) assume the rest of the ISC fleet to have we should use the 12th boat's time as the relative time to compare the boat to other types? Which is a 9 hour 23.
Do that and all sorts of interesting boat types pop up ahead in the cruising class results, Hunter Legend 335. First 260, Moody 336, X302, Feeling 850, Dehler 29, First 31.7...

But again... None of this should be any surprise at anyone who's ever looked at a CO32's IRC rating. 0.857 is typical.... I've found a Hanse 311 racing in Brighton (and coming 3rd, so it doesn't look like the rating was way off!) off 0.905

48 points is a huge rating difference. It's the sort of difference where I get grumpy if they're still in the same split. It's 172 seconds per hour of racing. Nearly 3 minutes per hour....