Is a boat Renovation basically building a boat from scratch?

Nautorius

Nautorius

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I am asking if I am being too picky about what jobs to do in renovating a boat. I have looked at several projects over the years and have come up with a list of modern requirements which a boat should have. If the boat has the facility but is old, and still usable I consider it OK.

However when a boat gets over 30 Years old without remedial work then I consider all systems only fit for the bin. This is based on the problems of finding replacement parts to mend broken items and the complexity of fitting.

The latest boat I looked at I was hoping to buy, do some remedial work to make her sea worthy, then upgrade systems over time. However one look at 40 year old electrics system and I was screaming. I just do not think it is safe to put any power through the cables and although the old light fittings seem OK, I would need to take them apart to check. The fuse box would have been condemned long ago in a house and the positioning of this wiring (attached to old wooden frames) means the slightest glitch and the boat is ablaze. So the only option is to rip all out and complete re-wire to modern standards and modern fittings where required.

The Fuel System was frightening. The diesel tank was an old stainless steel tank (20 years old) and had been moved to under a rear bunk without much ventilation. The original petrol tank was still in place with all the pipe work, the pipe work to the diesel engines was rotten, the connections of the pipe work where rusty, the positioning of the fuel tank was wrong….only option is to rip all out and start again.

The Gas system was very scary and would not pass my safety test, never mind the BSS requirements. Only option was to rip all out and replace with diesel fired heating and cooking (personal preference though more expensive)

The Framing was sound as is Aluminium and Hard wood, the hull is sound except for the wooden chine rails which are rotten and bolted through hull so would have to be replaced or 20 small holes may let in a lot of water. Best option to slurry blast the aluminium hull and deck and start again with fresh epoxy and paint. The Cabin tops were solid (ply) but 10 years old. The cabin sides were all rotten (20 year old ply). Given the 10 layers of non slip applied to the cabin tops and the difficulty of doing the sides with the top in place I thought it best to replace all things. Easy enough as only screwed to the Aluminium and hardwood frames and all screws easily got at (great!)

The steering system was seized and the ‘hydraulics’ rusted. Only safe option to rip out and replace. The Engines may be OK, who knows but until electrics and fuel sorted I would not start them. Anyway they are too small compared to original spec (replaced 20 years ago) so would be replaced anyway.

The water system was actually OK, but decrepit and new piping and tank needed and a better position could be found. The two sinks and toilet were classic but OK, just a service to the loo. The calorifier probably bit the dust in the late 80’s but has been left to rot down nicely….need new calorifier and piping all around boat.

The wooden floor in the cockpit and cabins was rotten, and needed ripping out and replacing but the actual hand made furniture was in great condition (probably too heavy to remove).

In Summary, I need new electrical system and appliances, new water system and calorifier, new gas/diesel system, new fuel system, new steering system, new cabin sides and tops, new floors and well the only stuff remaining needed renovating i.e. hull and interior furniture.

So surely it is not ‘renovation’ that is required but a new boat building!

Have I got it wrong?

Cheers

Paul
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
You can call it either. Though to be fair, as the frames and hull don't need replacing it's hardly going to be a new boat by anyones standards. So at the end of your renovations, if you want to call it a new boat then no one can say otherwise, but at the same time no one will be able to disagree when you say it was built in 19somethingorother.
 
Interesting list.

I bought my boat when she was 47 years old.

I have replaced:

The internal accomodation, completely (ripped out the lot, bulkheads, sole bearers, everything, and rebuilt it all)

The wiring (excellent professional job by Deben Marine)

The water and fuel tanks and all pipework and plumbing

The heating and cooking arrangements

The yottitronics (well, all there was was a Seafarer echo sounder!)

The standing and running rigging, sails, etc.

The reefing gear, sheet winches, fairleads, etc.,

The portlights, ventilators, seacocks, etc.

Have not yet replaced the engine; have no plans to replace the loo (Baby Blake) or the windlass.

Boat is now 70, and date I say it in good nick. The structure itself, hull, decks etc., (teak on oak) is fine, and has needed less work (new floors, mast step, keelbolts, half a dozen frames, bulward stanchions) than the accomodation and systems.
 
Ah but be restoring/renovating (or whatever you want to call it) rather than new build, you don't need to meet many of the CE requirements...
 
Call it what you like.

Much like Mirelle I have replaced

The deck

cabin roof

timbers that support the fuel tanks

some new laminations to the bow

all the plumbing

the loo

the galley

most of the internal furniture

the wiring

engines have been rebuilt with new blocks (both cracked)

and some other stuff.

At heart I feel she is the same boat and certainly starting from scratch would have been a much bigger task.
 
Thanks for all the replies,

I now know that i am not being fussy and that a restoraion can be a rebuild! In reference to the resale and having costed it out, I would expect to get the cost of materials and equipment back on such a renovation. Labour cost, be it mine or hired, I have not factored in. I believe all boats have a ceiling price and Classic Boats are only worth what someone will pay. Having said that if you restore a boat and get some use out of her then losing a few grand of labour cost is just 'maintenance'. I do not think I would get even 30% back for the cost of the new engines though as a boat should have the correct engines in her to sell!! The better she is, however, the faster she will sell, but not neccessarily for more money.

All IMHO though.

Cheers

Paul /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Part of the problem is with the boat you are looking at. If I am thinking of the right boat, mentioned elsewhere, it was a one off built by a yard of no great repute with materials that sound as though they were used to create a light fast boat and not with an eye for quality/ logevity. Aluminium at that time was not widely used for boats so I would be suspicious of the integrity of the hull. Plywood I personally hate. As soon as water gets into it it rots like mad. It obviously has nice lines and that is overuling all else!!
With Mirelle's boat you have excellent original materials so the structure is good and will remain that way for many years including moderate periods of neglect. You still have to modernise to suit your own taste.
If you want something that looks good and is built of good materials, how about a Bates Starcraft. If you must have a project, there is one at John Bushnells at Wargrave called Kalina (33 ft aft cabin). Not necessarily for sale, but looking sadder by the year. Better still, buy the best and buy Sea Melody, moored at Hurley Lock and for sale (still, I think) at around £40k, having been looked after all its life by Peter Freebody's yard at Hurley. Even at £40k I wager that you will still come out ahead of a rebuild, from a monetary angle.
Incidentally, I am biased towards Bates boats as my Pop had one for many years back in the 60's and 70's. One of the best looking boats of their day. The 40 footers are also very good, but wet, sea boats. Incidentally, Colin Messer (restorer) at Windsor has a 40 footer in restoration. Unless he has found a buyer you may get a good deal there.
 
As has been discussed before it all comes down to the point, is a fully restored boat (car, plane, house) actually the 'original' item?

Visitors to HMS Victory are reverently shown the place where Nelson fell at Trafalgar.

Arguably its not, because Victory has been entirely rebuilt at least twice since then, and is well into her third rebuild. I believe I am right in saying that none of her present fabric was actually at Trafalgar.

Yet she remains the construction we know as Victory.

A scratch built replica might also be called 'Victory', and be in all respects identical. But no one would see it as the 'real' Victory.

I suspect the difference is that if you replace component parts of a structure, that structure retains its identity even if you eventually replace all the component parts. A bit like some older cars I have owned in the past! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
I think Victory has about 3% of her original timbers in her. There's nothing wrong with that, since she's nearly 250 years old and still sound. Unlike Cutty Sark, which has original frames you can dig out with a spade.
 
Not convinced I'd describe Brooke Marine as a yard of no great repute. The boat I'm sure being discussed is one of two, thirty foot prototypes made before Ocean Pirates grew to 36'. I have a sneaking suspicion that this one is called Panther. A large number of these aluminium hulls (to the same design) were built as fast patrol boats for the Omani Navy. Before WWII, Brooke produced some really lovely mahogany launches and a wide range of cruisers - even the odd Brown Boat. I'd be quite content with their pedigree. OF
 
Mike,

You make fair, and very sensible points. Yes it is the same boat that I have been talking about. She has nice lines and the Hull is sound. But she is in a very sad state and will be lost of no one takes her soon.

She is from a yard with a lot of pedigree and was built by the Yard owner as a plaything to annoy the owner of Fairey boats who at the time was developing the 31. I believe they had a small wager. The Plans show she was designed and built in a very quick time, but they had the resources and money (and know how)

Cheers

Paul /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
I'm not sure you are right there, the first huntsman 31, Venator (latin for Huntsman), was finished in 67, some 5 of so years after the boat in question.

I would not question the pedigree of the Brooke yard, they turned out some fine boats.

And lets face it the Fairey boats are only plywood and glue!! (and limited amounts of chipboard...believe me...I know...I swept it up from the bilge!)
 
Ask Youself Why?
I have renovated/rebuilt/ restored/repaired/resurrected. Cars/ motorcycles/boats and Wives.
The Wives were easier and less costly.
Never mind the land locked stuff let us cocentrate on the floaty things.
Rebuilt 2 "uknowns" made a terrible financial loss.
Rebuilt a well known motor boat Marque. Got all the money back and enjoyed the boat for 5 years.
Got all the money back. Well got all the money that went in. Not the hours spent though. However the enjoyement level during those Years I thought was worth it.
If today I was looking at say a basket case 500cc BSA Gold Star at £1000 I would rather buy a Mint one for £10,000! and have the pleasure of using it.
Similarly I,d rather invest in a totally restored Swordsman or the ilk, use it and sell at the end of My pleasure. Plus the inevitable fettling one would have to perform during ownership. Said fettling would be enough for Me nowadays.
Unless You have all the time in the World and really enjoy the work/effort/end result. Get one that works, improve it a bit enjoy and sell on!
 
I think I'd agree with that. With the proviso I may get duped into taking on another rebuild. If you like to do things right, you'll spend more than it's worth anyway. So buy the one that someone's done all the work on. OK, there will be bits you don't approve of and probably re-do, but you get the pleasure fron the finished article.

Unless of course, the pleasure is in the doing.


One thing I've always held dear is that the very roughest category of car, boat, bike, whatever will probably never make it back to being top quality. Some are just not worth the effort.
 
My Thoughts are this.

1) I am good at DIY..building thimngs but have never had chance to do 12v electrics, boat plumbing, basic diesel engine Maintenance.
2) I enjoy doing jobs to boat, but SWMBO likes sexy new white things.
3) I travel up to 3hrs each way to work.
4) During the summer I often stay on boat as only 1 hour from work...but end up cleaning it then going to pub as our marina very quiet during the week.
5) Have agreed that we will not have a boat this year (to use) as she wants to make another baby and consider needs for new boat (apparently DIY does not help on that front!)
6) I have always wanted to do an old boat up, but it would have to be a 'looker' to get me interested.
7)SWMBO will never go on any old boat that does not have basic neccesities and smells nice, looks cleanand new! GRP White thing!
8) If I buy a part restored boat then I will want to start again so it is to my standards.
9) If I buy a fully restored boat it willl not neccessarily be to SWMBO's spec
10) if I build a new boat she will say no.
11) I want a boat near to london on which I can leave the office, be there in one hour, work on her for 3/4 hours, then sleep over. All big jobs will be done in my garage at home at weekends (with the boys helping) with occasional day trips to boat to do minor work.

So I want a classic do-er uper, preferably with GRP or sound hull (ie Aluminium), where I can get the basics right (Plumbing, Fuel and electrics) Get the Fittout right (clean tidy and practical) and conn SWMBO into thinking it is just cheap accom near London.

So I Reckon that such a boat as this could tick all boxes and I have 15 months at least to get her on the water looking nice for 2008 Season.

So am I mad, I will have approx 10 hrs a week on the boat and approx 6 hours at home to do the other jobs (ie fabrication) My Dad is retired and an ex-enginerr, early 60's so will help me with two man jobs for pints of beer. The boat is on the hard in a yard with cheap fees and a marine engineers place where other workmen help out for pound notes.

So am I barking mad, I really want to do it, am willing to pay for professional help where needed (designing whole new electrical system) and any engine/gearbox work that we can not do, have a good fund set aside so will not be constantly scrimping (ie buy the right parts first time) and will enjoy it.

I have a high pressure job and need to relax and currently end up going on benders in london which can be very expensive!

Also want a nice boat at end that we can keep and use on Thames and East coats for many years. It has to be saleable, and to minimise any loss would be nice. I am, however used to losing up to £5k a year on a new boat depreciation plus marine mortgage so this will be cheaper. Would prefer to get her right for us and lose a few grand if/when we sell then scrimp and her not be what we want.

Cheers

Paul /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
So am I barking mad, I really want to do it

sounds like the perfect set up to me. you have the place, the time and the money. just finding the right boat now.
good luck
 
Anyone considering a rebuild is mad by default. But don't let that put you off. If you like the boat and are willing to put the time and/or money into it then go for it.

Just think, by the time you finish you'll have a boat built to your standards, fitted out to your liking, and as a bonus, it'll have a history to go with it.
 
I had not noticed the builder's name.
Certainly if THE Brooke Marine, a fine builder and must be one of the pioneers of the use of Aluminium hulls.
Still don't like the sound of all that PLY.
Just because it is close to being "lost for ever" is no reason to save it at exorbitant cost and out of all proportion to it's value, but then I speak as an accountant 1st and boat lover 2nd!!
 
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