Irrational Fear of In-Mast Furling?

[davidlhill]

Hi all,

I'm a couple of years away from retiring and have started the happy hobby of scouring the brokers for a c£60k boat to spend several years cruising when that happens (guess what my tax free lump sum is going to be spent on?). Much like the "best boat under 60k to cross the Atlantic" thread my intention is to head west and keep on going. The boats that have cropped up in that thread pretty much concur with my thoughts - classic, well made yachts in the 35/37 foot range.

However, I've seen a few boats with in-mast furling. Is my fear of this method of reefing irrational? The boats I'm looking at are already the best part of 2 decades old, and I guess I worry about such a reefing system (I've only ever used this method when chartering from Sunsail in the med). I like the idea of simple single line/dual line reefing, and worry that if the going got tough the furling mechanism could jam, leaving too much sail up with no easy way to reduce.

Any thoughts/comments?

Regards,

David

 

[macd]

If by heading west you mean the Trades, you might be better leaving the main wherever it lives, anyway, and concentrating on your foresails.

 

[Tranona]

90% of HRs over 37' are fitted with in mast - that is the ones that are usually bought for ocean cruising (even if many of them don't actually do it!).

Seriously, the only fear that is reasonable is that 20+ year old boats may not have the best system and also may be suffering from neglect. Buying in the market that you are means you can only choose from what is for sale, and there are many more important things to worry about than the type of rig it has. So it is just one of those things to consider as all used boats will have their pluses and minuses, so you have to judge a boat as a whole against your expectations.

 

[[2574]]

We've had our inmast furling for the past thirteen years on what is a 21 year old boat. First problem appeared last year with the furling winch at the mast becoming very tight. I'd never serviced it so hardly surprising. So this spring I set about dismantling and servicing the winch. It is more of a job than servicing a jib sheet winch as the winch has to be removed from the mast to dismantle it. However, probably six hours work and it's back in fine fettle and furls sweetly again.

There are certain techniques that have to be employed to achieve a good furling and unfurling routine but we've found the whole system very reliable. Yes one has to head up to put a furl in when running downwind in any decent breeze but the same applies for a traditional mainsail arrangement.

Keep your gear in good order and use it well and you'll have few problems is my experience.

 

[Martin&Rene]

Our friend had a 1998 H&R 46 from new and was persuaded by the salesman to have in mast furling. He did not like it and on the second time across the Atlantic it jammed and gave them real problems. He had the furling system taken off, a track fitted to his mast and he purchased a new mainsail.

 

[Judders]

I've not sailed on many boats with in mast furling and yet I've had serious problems twice. Come to think of it that's probably 66% of all in mast furling boats that I've sailed have had problems... However; I am aware of plenty of folk who have had it for years and never had a problem. I suspect the difference is that on the boats I sailed on the owner didn't really get to grips with the system, know it's foibols and how to overcome them. Most systems have some sort of gremlin lurking. If you know how to fix it then it's fine.

Any designer who is designing a system that can't be unjammed obviously wants to be tarred and feathered but I suspect that they don't do so. So it would just be a case of getting to grips with your system and keeping it serviced. And to be fair, that applies to just about everything on a boat does it not?

 

[capnsensible]

Generally not the problem people imagine.

I have sailed tens of thousands of ocean miles on boats (various) with little problem. Lucky me. But I also seen many yachts all over the place that are happy with the ease of safe sail control on offer.

Ten seconds to reef down the equivalent size of a slab? What's not to like?

:encouragement:

 

[Bav34]

A friend of mine bought a new boat with in-mast.

Found it very sluggish and asked me to have a look at it.

I am definitely no expert but I know the principles and can normally tweak some sort of useful shape into a sail.

First and pretty much last reaction was the main was as flat as a flat thing. Absolutely no power being generated.

Thought I'd release just a bit of halyard tension just to see ... "NO" he howled, it jams if it's not tight.

Er, ok, tried vainly to release the outhaul but as expected the leech just hooked.

Backstay was already slacker than I'd like it but pulling it on would just flatten the sail further.

Managed to get some twist in it ... up main track, sheet out a bit but it was still powerless.

Put the engine on and motored to the nearest pub

 

[johnalison]

I think that although part of the problems people have with is the nature and state of the equipment, there is also a large element of how it is used. I have only occasionally sailed on a boat with main furling, but if it were me, I would want to take time to familiarise myself with the system in all conditions before setting off into the green yonder.

 

[jordanbasset]

On my first boat with in-mast furling I did manage to jam it early on, but holding my hands up that was down to user error, i.e. me. Since then in the years sailing that boat I never had a problem. So much so that the only solid criteria my wife had for our next boat was in-mast furling, she liked it because it was to easy to use. So our current boat also has in-mast furling and again no problems.

 

[Pagetslady]

I have sailed my W Corsair for 25 years, when I bought the boat she was 4 years old and was fitted with retro fit in mast, never had any problems, 17 years ago I lost my mast due to a deck fitting breaking. I had a Seldon mast replacement which also has inmast, this was a far better system and again since then I have had no problems, I managed to buy a nearly new Maxi Roach sail off a Corsair who didn't like the inmast on his boat so I bought it from him this had vertical battens wow what a difference that sail made, about four years ago the sail was getting rather worn and if I was not careful when putting it away it would momentarily jam at the top. I then bought a new battened furling main from Crusader, I don't think it is as efficient as the Maxi Roach but it is a great deal better than the one without battens that I had originally, I think that the 150% Genoa she was originally fitted was possibly fitted to the small Main, but having fitted the battened main the big Genoa was too big, back winding the main , I found I sailed quicker and closer to the wind with it reefed, so I have had a smaller one made 120% and it seems a lot better, but I have only had it a week.
Mike

 

[Kelpie]

It is perhaps irrational to completely rule out in-mast furling, but I understand the caution because it's one of these things that can cause serious trouble if it ever does go wrong. Some people view spade rudders, saildrives, or even gas systems in the same way- but all are inherently safe and usable if properly specified and maintained. My boat's lifting keel falls into the same category I suppose.

My own view of these systems is a little clouded by an experience from a couple of years ago when I ended up climbing the mast on a neighbour's boat, at anchor in Rona. His swivel had failed and he'd been forced to wrap the main around the mast. I was able to help him drop it, but he faced a 300 mile journey home against the prevailing wind.

 

[NormanS]

My ketch has a furling Genoa, an in-mast furling main, and a loose-footed mizzen with a stackpack.
The only one that has given me any bother, is the Genoa, which once developed a wrap when the halyard diverter and the mast parted company. Having been originally somewhat prejudiced against in-mast furling, I am now strongly in favour of it, with the experience of having the direct comparison of the conventional mizzen.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

I've owned a boat with in-mast furling, and it sailed beautifully. It was explained to me by a sail-maker that if a yacht is designed from the outset with the system, it's probably OK - but it requires such a massive compromise on the ideal mainsail shape (flatness/camber, roach, battens etc etc) that a yacht retro-fitted with in-mast furling is likely to sail very badly.

With my system there was one way that you could absolutely guarantee a jam with the furling line. But as long as you knew that, and avoided doing it, it was reliable.

 

[wully1]

On my last boat I managed to jam the in mast furling the first few times I used it.. It was a learning curve. Once I knew what to do during the furling away I had no more problems.
A properly cut sail goes a long way towards an easy life with in mast, as does the rule that winch force must NEVER be used to furl away. If you can't do it by hand then something is wrong.

In my experience anyway.

 

[jac]

Had it on our last boat and whilst it is pretty easy and unreliable I was never happy with the sail. As others have pointed out, you don't really have much left to control the sail shape with and the mast is left where it is, no real way of cracking on some backstay.

It is on the list of definite no's for the next boat but can see the attraction if your intent is to lazily waft along downwind without a care in the world for when you get there.

 

[NormanS]

"Easy and unreliable"? Whatever that means.
I find that I have a lot of control over the sail shape, simply by adjusting the outhaul tension. Certainly with it being loose-footed, the foot of the sail is a lot more efficient than one that is attached along the boom. So I'll just keep on wafting along, thank you.

 

[[2574]]

So I'll just keep on wafting along, thank you.

I think I must "waft along" too!

 

[PeteCooper]

Perhaps we should remember that when rolling genoas started to become more available, probably in the 60s/70s many of the same arguments were wheeled out about sail shape and the problems if it jammed. I would guess that over 90% of yachts nowadays have roller genoas because of the convenience and reliability issues seem to have been sorted. I suspect that more production yachts will be supplied as standard with in mast reefing as people realise that they are reliable, and most people aren't bothered about the ultimate in sail shape..

 

[ip485]

I have used both, the current IP has in mast.

On the plus side, for short handed sailing there is no substitute. It is just so easy and safe.

However, I think it is a system that you must be absolutely satisfied works correctly and you know how to use it in all conditions. My biggest fear is a serious breakage when the sail is partially furled, which I have experienced once.

So make sure the system is mechanically sound and that no undue strain is being placed on any part. Personally I always prefer to furl head to wind as I feel it places a lot less strain on the furling system.

As to sail set, sail technology has advanced considerably. Many older furling sails were never made specifically to be furled. Full length vertical battens help the shape enormously and I reckon my main performs nearly as well as a conventional sail.

For cruising, I would choose a furling main over a conventional main every time AS long as I was satisfied the system was correctly rigged, fully functional, and the sail corectly cut.