IPS Drives - Are they still really bad?

[MapisM]

SD have the concept as a shaft drive with the difference that the prop is sticking out of the stern and you have no rudders.

Actually, with trimmable and steerable surface transmissions (Arneson, Jolly Drive) the differences are much more than that, as I'm sure you know.
In fact, if I could afford a big and fast SD driven toy, I'd rather have one with something like the Buzzi/ZF Trimax stuff.
Just in case Santa is reading this, a quad engines Otam 80 as a Xmas gift would do, thanks in advance!
On top of an even higher level of performance, THAT is more comparable to shafts in terms of maintenance - and in another league vs. trim/steer-able drives.
Which are better than IPS anyway, of course. But what isn't...!? :ambivalence:

 

[Nigelpickin]

Actually, with trimmable and steerable surface transmissions (Arneson, Jolly Drive) the differences are much more than that, as I'm sure you know.
In fact, if I could afford a big and fast SD driven toy, I'd rather have one with something like the Buzzi/ZF Trimax stuff.
Just in case Santa is reading this, a quad engines Otam 80 as a Xmas gift would do, thanks in advance!
On top of an even higher level of performance, THAT is more comparable to shafts in terms of maintenance - and in another league vs. trim/steer-able drives.
Which are better than IPS anyway, of course. But what isn't...!? :ambivalence:

I would bite but...

 

[Boat2016]

I would bite but...

Love it, and from what I read in a previous post you were one of the minority who actually had first hand experience and not just following what all the others said who had no experience whatsoever, don't believe all you read here as if you did you would never own a boat !!!

 

[MapisM]

don't believe all you read here as if you did you would never own a boat !!!

Well, if that's what would follow from believing all you read here, it wouldn't be such a bad idea, after all...

 

[[2068]]

For me, the issue is really around "possible big scary bills out of warranty".
If you look at the Volvo Website, each major part of an IPS system is 4k, 5k, or so.

Not IPS, but as an example, how on earth did a Cummins Zeus boat need £50k worth of engine/drive refurbishment after only 7 years?
https://www.burtonwaters.co.uk/boat-for-sale/Sealine-SC47-FOR-SALE-6357781.html

.

 

[Boat2016]

Well, if that's what would follow from believing all you read here, it wouldn't be such a bad idea, after all...

How many boats with IPS have you owned ? it's ok giving the sarcastic comments but unless you know what your talking about its just your assumption, I would much rather hear from owners who have owned IPS boats rather than those who run down a product because they have never owned it and think it's rubbish, the owners I have spoken to with IPS have all said as long as it's surviced correctly it's reliable and none have yet had any costly bills, I certainly wouldn't rule it out on my next boat.

 

[sprocker]

Good call.
Have you sold yours?

Not yet Paul. Few interested parties but all have boats to sell before they can move.

 

[oldgit]

How many boats with IPS have you owned ? it's ok giving the sarcastic comments but unless you know what your talking about its just your assumption, I would much rather hear from owners who have owned IPS boats rather than those who run down a product because they have never owned it and think it's rubbish, the owners I have spoken to with IPS have all said as long as it's surviced correctly it's reliable and none have yet had any costly bills, I certainly wouldn't rule it out on my next boat.

"WHICH" magazine reports that the Land Rover Discovery Sport and the Range Rover Evoque are probably the two most unreliable cars on the planet. This does not stop them being loved by their owners.
Suspect this is the case with skippers of IPS boats, its subsequent owners that probably need to be aware of future maintaince costs. ?
Doubt "WHICH" magazine have ever owned one of these vehicles,so should they be prevented from publishing warnings about problems ?

 

[TonyR123]

Current boat has IPS and I prefer them to shafts just because it is easier to manoeuvre. Virtual anchor/DPS is great. Waiting for fuel switch on the DPS, get a beer and wait 10 mins in relaxation. I think shafts/thruster combo also have DPS but not entirely sure. However I didn't look for IPS as such when buying the boat, do have benefits for extra space it provides. They have been around a while now so any initial issues should be sorted. If not then I have a 5 year warranty so no extra cost!

Will let you know in 5 years if I would buy them again but I expect I would. Someone posted a commercial boat with IPS that had been going for years.

Interesting in the evoque reliability comment. We had one for 2 years (I hated the car) and no issues at all. She now has a sport and again not a single issue. We had more issues with a BMW previously but I would expect the BMW overall is more reliable.

 

[NoviceRod]

Andy - interesting. I too am thinking about an upgrade to ~40ft.

Andy - For me, it is shafts with bow and stern thruster. Our Nimbus 335 with single shaft and thrusters works well, and two engines should improve maneuverability.

Nimbus 405 Fly and Beneteau ST44 are possible candidates. There is a ST44 on C pontoon just down from us.

 

[MapisM]

How many boats with IPS have you owned ? it's ok giving the sarcastic comments but unless you know what your talking about its just your assumption, I would much rather hear from owners who have owned IPS boats rather than those who run down a product because they have never owned it and think it's rubbish, the owners I have spoken to with IPS have all said as long as it's surviced correctly it's reliable and none have yet had any costly bills, I certainly wouldn't rule it out on my next boat.

Not sure if yours are genuine questions or just a generic attempt to dismiss views against the thing, but assuming the first:

I owned none so far and never will, but you already guessed that.
I cruised with (and helmed) two of them, and liked neither in terms of cruising attitude.
Btw, I even disliked the behavior upon maneuvering, which is hectic and imho less predictable, compared to shaft boats.
Otoh, the wives of those owners very much like being able to take care of the joystick and let their husbands deal with the lines.
Mind, I'm not being sarcastic now - I appreciate that this is a real plus for someone.

Ref. maintenance costs and reliability, yes, I know what I'm talking about, based not only on those two boats and what I heard from their owners, but also several others which are EXCELLENT clients of the yard where I normally service my boat (VP official dealer, not a Mickey Mouse mechanic).

All that said, generally speaking I don't get why you are only interested in owners' views.
Whenever I'm interested in a product (not just a boat), I'd like to hear first and foremost from those who decided to NOT buy it, rather than the opposite - but each to their own.

PS: how many boats with "Seaplex/eplex systems" have you owned? Me, I don't even know what you were talking about, and if such things are nowadays fitted to most production boats, I obviously lost the plot.

 

[Nigelpickin]

Otoh, the wives of those owners very much like being able to take care of the joystick and let their husbands deal with the lines.

Ah bless them, isn’t it wonderful that VP have developed a system so simple that even our little women are able to use it....

Perhaps not surprising that some views on here regarding the advancement on technology are a little backward looking....eew!

 

[MapisM]

Yeah, I never denied that easiness of maneuverability is a plus of the pods - possibly the most important single reason behind their success. In fact, as I said, my previous comment on those owners' wives wasn't sarcastic at all.

Mind, the key point is easiness, not maneuverability, though.
When compared to a shaft boat with a good bow thruster (let alone one with also a good stern thruster), the IPS adds ZERO to the vessel maneuverability, in my experience. If anything, the boat movements are a bit more hectic with the latter, to the point of being potentially dangerous, while mooring squeezed between other boats: I've seen the bulwark rails of an IPS boat hitting those of another moored boat, even if well fendered, due to the rolling induced by IPS working sideways.
Thanks God nobody onboard had the hands on the rail when that happened.

Otoh, handling one joystick instead of two throttles and two thruster controls is indeed easier and more intuitive - no doubt about it.

 

[TonyR123]

I had shafts / bowthruster before (not stern thruster) and now have pods. Without a doubt pods are easier by the fact you go any direction without any thought. As for roll I also have none but then again I do have a gyro that is always on.

I moor up in the med and it is so simple. Would I go back to shafts? Probably not but a shaft boat with thrusters can do almost the same thing. I would not rule out a shaft boat again though but out of choice I would probably choose pods.

Having said all that I enjoy 'tech' and anything new. I admittedly don't put cost as first priority.

 

[Nigelpickin]

In fact, as I said, my previous comment on those owners' wives wasn't sarcastic at all.

T’would be better if that were not so....or at least a little ironic...


If anything, the boat movements are a bit more hectic with the latter, to the point of being potentially dangerous, while mooring squeezed between other boats: I've seen the bulwark rails of an IPS boat hitting those of another moored boat, even if well fendered, due to the rolling induced by IPS working sideways.
Thanks God nobody onboard had the hands on the rail when that happened.

.

Ok, in this example, you are wrong, without doubt, to cite this as a failure of the IPS or any vectoring system, (save those boats that are too long and have legs on the back, but I don’t think your are talking about them).

There are plenty of nuances required in the skill of handling an IPS system when using the Joycon. It’s an incremental system in terms of applying the powers, beyond that you have a H/L power selector that maxes out at < 600 rpm, (on IPS 600).

Any of us that have been boat boating for a while will have seen the damage that can be done with an analog or FBW throttle, be they supplying shafts, jets or legs.

So let’s get over this once and for all. When used correctly and after a little experience there really is no problem - and when there is, its operator error. You give me or any other experienced user a go at the helm and I promise you that you can’t compete with a joystick for manoeuvrability. I’ve lost count of the amount of times Marina staff and cruising friends on other boats have looked at us with admiration, until we tell them how we are doing it!


Your points about servicing requirements, cost of ownership and unknown long time ownership issues are pertinent and sound. Any potential purchaser should be made aware of the difference between the systems.

 

[MapisM]

So let’s get over this once and for all. When used correctly and after a little experience there really is no problem - and when there is, its operator error. You give me or any other experienced user a go at the helm and I promise you that you can’t compete with a joystick for manoeuvrability. I’ve lost count of the amount of times Marina staff and cruising friends on other boats have looked at us with admiration, until we tell them how we are doing it!

I fully accept that the operator's skills play a major role in avoiding potential side effects of strong vector thrust, but as a matter of fact every times I see a boat visibly listing and rolling while mooring, it's invariably an IPS powered boat.
Sure, the case I mentioned of the one which listed enough to have her rails touching those of the boat moored on her side could have been handled better, but this doesn't change the fact that such situation, potentially dangerous for the crew dealing with the bow lines, could have never happened with bow/stern thrusters alone - no matter how powerful.

Ref. maneuverability, I still believe that pods only bring to the table an easier and more intuitive interface, not an actually better capacity of the boat to maneuver.
Of course, you must compare apples with apples - i.e. an experienced joystick user with an experienced user of traditional controls and a boat with decent thrusters (many P boats have thrusters which are almost a joke, in fact).
Whenever those conditions are not met, i.e. quite often, of course dock admiration is easier to achieve with joystick control.
But I'm happy to agree to disagree, anyway! :encouragement:

 

[sprocker]

Andy - interesting. I too am thinking about an upgrade to ~40ft.

Andy - For me, it is shafts with bow and stern thruster. Our Nimbus 335 with single shaft and thrusters works well, and two engines should improve maneuverability.

Nimbus 405 Fly and Beneteau ST44 are possible candidates. There is a ST44 on C pontoon just down from us.

Thankyou Rod, I have never noticed the ST44, I'll pop down and take a look after work tomorrow.

 

[Nigelpickin]

I’m happier just disagreeing with something when it’s objectively wrong.

IPS is a system that takes the prevailing condition/s, current/wind/sluice gate, out of the game and in that sense it’s a game changer.

Coming on to a pontoon with 3kts of current rushing down stream and 20kts of wind beam on pushing you off and a 17mt Gap for a 15m the boat - I’d love to see MBY put Jack in an IPS boat IPS against John Mendez in a Shaft Drive and see what the outcome is.....surely they could arrange that during SIBS????

 

[Portofino]

The manourvering is a red hearing ,cul d sac argument .
It's the rubber seals and IMHO the rubber skirt dangling in seawater .The latter seems a taboo subject !
I don,t think you need to an owner to contribute to the Op,s question .
Nigel and Tony have been new owners ,not used and have young boats --so far so good .

But then what ? As they age ?
There are plenty of other forums ,this one below challenges VP,s the seal issue , think about it it's not gonna last for ever .
I have previously chalanged the rubber skirt ,another drop the leg + big bill ---but when 5 or 7 years or wait until it perishes-on a recent thread on here --silence .

To Nigel + Tony just for clarity ,have you had your seals done yet ?If not any thoughts of when

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f54/the-truth-about-volvo-ips-drive-technology-153683.html

 

[volvopaul]

How many boats with IPS have you owned ? it's ok giving the sarcastic comments but unless you know what your talking about its just your assumption, I would much rather hear from owners who have owned IPS boats rather than those who run down a product because they have never owned it and think it's rubbish, the owners I have spoken to with IPS have all said as long as it's surviced correctly it's reliable and none have yet had any costly bills, I certainly wouldn't rule it out on my next boat.

Read some of this IPS history in America , there not very impressed with it.

Generally there now getting to a state where the drives are leaking in the shaft seals allowing sea water into the oil, as there is no separate section for the gearbox in the upper parts and the Duoprop gears the emulsified oil basically looses its property to cool and lubricate the clutches and steering system , therefor the whole lot starts to deteriorate.
The first sign is slipping clutches , as the plate she slip they get hot boiling the oil beyond its capabilities to work, the cycle gets worse then eventually you loose oil pressure and the whole thing grinds to a a halt.
The lower IPS unit van fail and allow water in even through simply catching fishing line, as most owners do a service each year emulsified oil is detectable, unfortunately if you get caught early on in the season your not going to know maybe until it's too late.

Early generation had clutch pack mods carried out to raise the clutch pack pressure trying to attempt to stop the clutches slipping , some mods were Carried out on service but at a cost to the owner if out of warranty , basically they were the guinea pigs for VP development, hence later units were rid of the low oil pressure woes.

Apart from ease of use I don't believe there is any betterment on fuel consumption over a stern drive boat especially if you add the service costs each year, as I've said it's down to buyer and model of boat built around it being IPS .