Inverter on board

[PaulRainbow]

According to who

Good to see you back to your true self Roger, the act must have been terribly difficult to have kept up for a whole month.

 

[rogerthebodger]

So we can put the shore power wires into any old connection, the live doesn't actually have to go in the live terminal, it can go in the Earth terminal ?

No, of course it can't, some things have a set way of being done.

Feel free to wire your boat up any way you see fit, it's your boat.

Now who is the troll

There are several different types of connections used for shore power. I have several different adaptor cables to allow for that.

All around the world there are different way of connecting up the electrical supply.

Our standard electrical plug is a 16 Amp round pin unlike the UK 13 Amp Square pin

US German, French ,Australian are all different so are all these that differ with the UK wrong and dangerous

 

[VicS]

Terminology for the non technical can be confusing or designed to confuse.
>
>
Going back to the neutral / protective return wire connection of the supply device its is also connected to a metal spike inserted in the earth/ ground/ soil next to the supply device (electrical substation). This is why it id called earth or ground.

In a domestic electrical set up you will also have a earth / ground spike at your hone the connects the protective supply wire in the supply cable.

This "earth/ground" connection at the substation and at you house provides a second path for any leakage / short to a metal case back to the neutral at the upply device (substation). In the case of a boat this earth/ground spike will become any conductive metal in contact with the sea water .

Roger,
This system using a ground spike at ones a home is the least common system used in the UK. Probably only used in rural areas where the local distribution is overhead. It is termed a TT system ("T" from the French word " terre", meaning earth or ground) because a direct connection to the earth is made at each end.

More common is TN-S, where the earth and neutral are separate conductors ( hence the letter "S") in the supply cable, (The earth being traditionally the lead sheath)
Now that lead sheathed cables are not used ( or even made ??) TN-S is replaced by TN-C-S in which the supply cable is just two core. One core being a combined ( hence the letter "C") earth and neutral. The earth for the house installation is then a separate connection made to the combined conductor at the cable termination..
( should perhaps add that a TN-C-S system is not allowed for the pontoon supplies in a marina because a discontinuity the combined conductor would lead to a very dangerous situation)

 

[rogerthebodger]

Roger,
This system using a ground spike at ones a home is the least common system used in the UK. Probably only used in rural areas where the local distribution is overhead. It is termed a TT system ("T" from the French word " terre", meaning earth or ground) because a direct connection to the earth is made at each end.

More common is TN-S, where the earth and neutral are separate conductors ( hence the letter "S") in the supply cable, (The earth being traditionally the lead sheath)
Now that lead sheathed cables are not used ( or even made ??) TN-S is replaced by TN-C-S in which the supply cable is just two core. One core being a combined ( hence the letter "C") earth and neutral. The earth for the house installation is then a separate connection made to the combined conductor at the cable termination..
( should perhaps add that a TN-C-S system is not allowed for the pontoon supplies in a marina because a discontinuity the combined conductor would lead to a very dangerous situation)

Thanks for that Vic

Well it been nearly 40 year since I owned a house in the UK so things have changes.

My current main house was built in the 1960's so may be still the old system as we do have an earth spike.

If I remember correctly my house in the UK did not have an RCD but my house in South Africa did. We also have to have our house inspected when sold to ensure the electrical installation complies with the current regulations.

I do wonder why the separate earth wire/connection was changed are the main supply cables steel wire reinforced ,ours are and that carries the earth wire.

I know as our local mulispiacity who distribute our electricity to us had to renew our main supply cable to us.

 

[VicS]

Thanks for that Vic
Well it been nearly 40 year since I owned a house in the UK so things have changes.
My current main house was built in the 1960's so may be still the old system as we do have an earth spike.
If I remember correctly my house in the UK did not have an RCD but my house in South Africa did. We also have to have our house inspected when sold to ensure the electrical installation complies with the current regulations.
I do wonder why the separate earth wire/connection was changed are the main supply cables steel wire reinforced ,ours are and that carries the earth wire.
I know as our local mulispiacity who distribute our electricity to us had to renew our main supply cable to us.

I am not up to speed on it but I believe the resistance of steel armouring (8 times that of copper) can be the problem

 

[jordanbasset]

I'm looking at buying a 3000w inverter most have a earth connection, talking to some who have them the earth isn't connected,
what the view on connecting the earth and where too ?

Have you got your answer now Vic

 

[rogerthebodger]

I am not up to speed on it but I believe the resistance of steel armouring (8 times that of copper) can be the problem

Yes but the area of the reinforcing steel wire would tend to compensate for the lower resistivity of the steel.

I checked on how my incoming cable is connected and the steel reinforcing is in fact connected to the earthing bus in the that all the house earth wire are connected too.

 

[pvb]

Yes but the area of the reinforcing steel wire would tend to compensate for the lower resistivity of the steel.

I checked on how my incoming cable is connected and the steel reinforcing is in fact connected to the earthing bus in the that all the house earth wire are connected too.

Typically, the cross-sectional area of the steel armour will be 3 to 4 times the area of the conductors.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Typically, the cross-sectional area of the steel armour will be 3 to 4 times the area of the conductors.

It is still a separate and independent return paten for any leakage current and for a RCD to trip it only needs to carry 30 mA.

Carbon Steel is better than Lead and far better than sea water or ground soil so your point is

 

[pvb]

Carbon Steel is better than Lead and far better than sea water or ground soil so your point is

You mentioned the area of the reinforcing wire, noting that it would compensate for the lower resistivity of steel. I supported that statement by noting that the area of the armour is greater than the conductors. But you then respond "so your point is", which I feel is confrontational. Post 81 seems to be correct!

 

[rogerthebodger]

You mentioned the area of the reinforcing wire, noting that it would compensate for the lower resistivity of steel. I supported that statement by noting that the area of the armour is greater than the conductors. But you then respond "so your point is", which I feel is confrontational. Post 81 seems to be correct!

Well it will as we are taking a similar increase in area to ratio of lower resistivity (from the information I have) of a steel cable reinforcing protective

Vic pointed out the Lead was used at one time and the resistivity of Lead is similar to carbon steel.

The alternate current leakage path is through the soil or the sea water so your comment seems just to have little value in the grand scheme of things.

As I say the installation is South Africa is done that way and complies with the local regulations.

Vic spoke about combining the protective wire and neutral in the supply circuit so is there not connection at all to any steel reinforcing of the supply cable or is there no steel reinforcing on UK electrical distribution cables.

If you think I'm been confrontational that you view not mine.

 

[PaulRainbow]

What has South African house wiring or 40 year old UK domestic supply

Well it been nearly 40 year since I owned a house in the UK so things have changes.

My current main house was built in the 1960's so may be still the old system as we do have an earth spike.

They say "a little knowledge is dangerous"

I wonder what a little 40 year old knowledge is

Anyway, what has 1960s South African house wiring got to do with the OPs question ? ?

 

[rogerthebodger]

What has South African house wiring or 40 year old UK domestic suppl

Because both are based on the same standards as most South African stands are based on ISO published standards

They say "a little knowledge is dangerous"

I wonder what a little 40 year old knowledge is

You mean people without a registered professional qualification and practical experience.

Dunning Kruger striks again

As I say South African standards are based on ISO so my knowledge is not 40 years old in fact s I found South Africa standard 40 years ago required RD's where UK did not. We also have to have our electrical installation inspection and updated to the current standards on transfer of ownership. Does the UK

Anyway, what has 1960s South African house wiring got to do with the OPs question ? ?

Nothing as I was answering a posting made by VicS so why are you getting involved.

The OP has not come back so he must have his answer somewhere else

Paul its very unprofessional to act this way and only does yourself a disservice.

Talking about inspection of electrical installation and all safety equipment/hull of our pleasure boats are inspected every year by our safety authority including wiring and electrical equipment. This is not required in the UK so who has more advanced safety requirements not the UK.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Because both are based on the same standards as most South African stands are based on ISO published standards

But nothing to do with the OP question.

You mean people without a registered professional qualification and practical experience.

I mean people who have no real World experience of current procedures methods, regulations etc.

Although it might not all apply to you, you can also throw in, people who Google their answers because they don't actually know, but present they as if they do. People who make posts on serious installations, such as inverters and generators, who have never installed one of either in their lives. People who post incorrect and dangerous advise, then argue about something else to deflect attention from their errors.

Nothing as I was answering a posting made by VicS so why are you getting involved.

I was answering a question by sailaboutvic, why are you getting involved ?

Oh, hang on, it's an open public forum.

The OP has not come back so he must have his answer somewhere else

See post #31

Every single time, without fail, there is a thread about inverters on these forums they turn into a total and complete fiasco, by people who don't understand how they should be installed. Every time.

 

[rogerthebodger]

I mean people who have no real World experience of current procedures methods, regulations etc.

You have no idea of forum members "World experience of current procedures methods, regulations etc."

I was answering a question by sailaboutvic, why are you getting involved ?

Oh, hang on, it's an open public forum.

Yes I have also given sailaboutvic advice so I fake it I am not allowed to post reply you have posted on (I think I have asked you that before)

Every single time, without fail, there is a thread about inverters on these forums they turn into a total and complete fiasco, by people who don't understand how they should be installed. Every time.

So are you the only one on the forum who understands how they (inverters) should be installed.

In my view it becomes a fiance when you start criticizing other peoples approach as it seems the only way is your way and yours is the only correct way and everyone else if wrong and dangerous.

 

[PaulRainbow]

In my view it becomes a fiance when you start criticizing other peoples approach as it seems the only way is your way and yours is the only correct way and everyone else if wrong and dangerous.

No, it's becomes a fiasco when people question that Earth connections should not be connected, when people state that an anti fouled keel makes a suitable Earth, when people claim that their way of wiring equipment is better than the industry standard, as set out in the current ISO, etc etc etc

I have not advocated "my way", i have advocated the way that manufacturers and all industry standards and regulatory bodies say thing should be done and they all say the same thing. There are only tow people on the forum who have said different.

Anyway, as you'll argue in an empty room until the cows come home, i'll wish you a pleasant weekend and sign off on this thread.

Out.

 

[rogerthebodger]

No, it's becomes a fiasco when people question that Earth connections should not be connected, when people state that an anti fouled keel makes a suitable Earth, when people claim that their way of wiring equipment is better than the industry standard, as set out in the current ISO, etc etc etc

I have not advocated "my way", i have advocated the way that manufacturers and all industry standards and regulatory bodies say thing should be done and they all say the same thing. There are only tow people on the forum who have said different.

Anyway, as you'll argue in an empty room until the cows come home, i'll wish you a pleasant weekend and sign off on this thread.

Out.

This demonstrated the difference between a technician who blindly follows the industry standard, and a Design Engineer who asks "is there a better way" and that better way then becomes the standard in time sometimes a long time.

Week end nearly over but being retired every day is a weekend day. So going sailing next week for a month

 

[PaulRainbow]

This demonstrated the difference between a technician who blindly follows the industry standard, and a Design Engineer who asks "is there a better way" and that better way then becomes the standard in time sometimes a long time.

That's just totally ridiculous, even for you.

No one in the industry ignores the manufacturers wiring instructions, the current standards and the regulatory requirements. That's territory for internet forum armchair experts. It's also one of the most arrogant things i've read for some time, where you think you know better than all of those entities.

 

[rogerthebodger]

That's just totally ridiculous, even for you.

So you think a Registered Design Engineer has less knowledge of the real world than a Technician.

As I have said before the knowledge and experience is different and complementary.

No one in the industry ignores the manufacturers wiring instructions, the current standards and the regulatory requirements. That's territory for internet forum armchair experts. It's also one of the most arrogant things i've read for some time, where you think you know better than all of those entities.

I don't ignore what manufacturers say but I do evaluate what the manufactures say together with my knowledge and experience and then come to my own conclusions.

I am naturally skeptical and there days you have to be careful what manufactures recommend as there can ne an alternative motive in selling more to make more profit.

This is why professional service just means you pay for that service and does not give an indicate the quality of the service.

When you recommend an expensive piece of equipment that the customer / poster cannot afford there is often a cheaper and just as good piece of equipment.

Car manufacturers do it all the time by marking up equipment that is made by the same supplier but has the manufactures logo at a significant price.

Generic medicine is just as good as the original developer/supplier but at a much lower cost.

I happen to know sailaboutvic could not afford/justify the cost of a Vectron inverter so rejected your recommendation. Its his choice.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I happen to know sailaboutvic could not afford/justify the cost of a Vectron inverter so rejected your recommendation. Its his choice.

I gave my advice to vic in post #27, can you see a mention of Victron ?

He replied in post #31, seemed happy enough with my advice.

How do you know what he can afford (how rude) ?