Insuring boats in EU

[TonyR123]

Apparently any UK insurer/broker who insures an EU flagged boat in Europe now needs an office in Europe. So the broker I was using can no longer insure my boat (as I paid Spanish IVA then it is effectively a Spanish flagged boat).

Doesnt impact the new one coming - as this will be in UK registered that will reside in EU waters except for 1 day every 18 months - but does impact my current one for a few months.

Anyone else had this issue?

 

[Poignard]

Partly.

My UK-registered boat has been kept in France since 2014.

After Brexit reared it's unlovely head I decided to to re-register her in Dublin.

My British insurers told me, with regret and an apology, that they would not be able to continue my policy if I re-flagged.

So I did not go ahead with my plan.

 

[TonyR123]

So your UK boat is still in France - assume you paid VAT in the UK?

 

[Poignard]

No.

She was built before the introduction of VAT on the UK.

But she is regarded as EU VAT paid because she was in the EU on the critical date.

In the unlikely event I were to bring her back to the UK, then I would be liable for UK VAT but, given her low value, and allowing for depreciation, the amount I might have to pay would be very small.

 

[Portofino]

Apparently any UK insurer/broker who insures an EU flagged boat in Europe now needs an office in Europe. So the broker I was using can no longer insure my boat (as I paid Spanish IVA then it is effectively a Spanish flagged boat).

Doesnt impact the new one coming - as this will be in UK registered that will reside in EU waters except for 1 day every 18 months - but does impact my current one for a few months.

Anyone else had this issue?

I take with the 18 M thing ^ you are benefitting from a VAT free new purchase bestowed upon 3 P s keeping it in the EU ?
Why wouldn’t you berthing near N Africa ?

Just use a local Sp broker , they flog the same 3-4 underwriters left still in leisure boats policies .Ask around in your marina .

Could you simply re flag current boat to SSR in the mean time ?

 

[Tranona]

No.

She was built before the introduction of VAT on the UK.

But she is regarded as EU VAT paid because she was in the EU on the critical date.

In the unlikely event I were to bring her back to the UK, then I would be liable for UK VAT but, given her low value, and allowing for depreciation, the amount I might have to pay would be very small.

You would not have to pay VAT. You would be eligible for Returned Goods Relief - RYA and particularly CA fought hard to retain that for any boat returned by the person who took it out without the previous 3 year limit.

 

[julians]

Apparently any UK insurer/broker who insures an EU flagged boat in Europe now needs an office in Europe. So the broker I was using can no longer insure my boat (as I paid Spanish IVA then it is effectively a Spanish flagged boat).

Doesnt impact the new one coming - as this will be in UK registered that will reside in EU waters except for 1 day every 18 months - but does impact my current one for a few months.

Anyone else had this issue?

I paid Spanish IVA on my boat,but it's most definitely British flagged( registered on UK ssr) ,and insured through pantaneous.

Where you paid vat/iva should have no bearing on the flag of the boat,but it doesn't surprise me that a UK insurance company can't/won't insure a none UK flagged boat
.
My insurance is up for renewal in June,but nothing has been said so far ,and I wouldn't expect any issue ,I guess I will find out soon

 

[TonyR123]

I am the same Julians - SSR and Spanish IVA. Think I might double check.

 

[Portofino]

I have never seen anything about VAT / IVA or other taxes on a insurance proposal form .

Seen flag , registration box to fill in .

Theres a mix up here if Tony’s boat is U.K. owned , U.K. flagged then most U.K. insurers will tackle it .Assuming they do Med marina berthing with most ( well the big players ) do .

Tony use online craftinsure…..to get through to a quote stage a proposal from a underwriter.

 

[julians]

I am the same Julians - SSR and Spanish IVA. Think I might double check.

Yeah , In that case I think there must be some mix up/misunderstanding somewhere .

 

[Hurricane]

You would not have to pay VAT. You would be eligible for Returned Goods Relief - RYA and particularly CA fought hard to retain that for any boat returned by the person who took it out without the previous 3 year limit.

Are you sure that's still the case?
There have been some very conflicting reports in the press.
This is a cutting from a recent issue of MBY

 

[Tranona]

Are you sure that's still the case?
There have been some very conflicting reports in the press.
This is a cutting from a recent issue of MBY

View attachment 154057

Yes. That is in relation to a campaign to allow people who bought boats in the EU that had paid VAT in the UK to be able to use the RGR, which as you know only applies if the person who is bringing it back is the same person who took it out.

So you could bring your boat back without paying VAT, but if you sold it to somebody else they could not. AFAIK Poignard took his boat to France years ago and still owns it. Where he has benefitted from the new rules is that the previous 3 year (with discretion) has been removed and there is now no time limit. Obviously the number of people this affects will decline over the years, but there have been signs of a significant number of boats that had been long term in the EU returning. The other important thing is that boats like yours and Poignards are potentially both EU and UK VAT paid so you could take them back and forth under RGR in each customs area and sell them in either with no VAT implications. However the new owners would not retain that duality.

 

[Hurricane]

Yes. That is in relation to a campaign to allow people who bought boats in the EU that had paid VAT in the UK to be able to use the RGR, which as you know only applies if the person who is bringing it back is the same person who took it out.

So you could bring your boat back without paying VAT, but if you sold it to somebody else they could not. AFAIK Poignard took his boat to France years ago and still owns it. Where he has benefitted from the new rules is that the previous 3 year (with discretion) has been removed and there is now no time limit. Obviously the number of people this affects will decline over the years, but there have been signs of a significant number of boats that had been long term in the EU returning. The other important thing is that boats like yours and Poignards are potentially both EU and UK VAT paid so you could take them back and forth under RGR in each customs area and sell them in either with no VAT implications. However the new owners would not retain that duality.

I can see your point and I trust you are correct but these press clippings don't make it very clear.
In the above clip, that article uses the word "repatriating".
But apart from that it doesn't specifically state that you can claim RGR if you were the original exporter.

Here is the CA's report in their own mag
A little more enlightening but still not totally clear.
You can read into these things whatever you want but the information has to be clear and correct.

 

[petem]

Yes. That is in relation to a campaign to allow people who bought boats in the EU that had paid VAT in the UK to be able to use the RGR, which as you know only applies if the person who is bringing it back is the same person who took it out.

So you could bring your boat back without paying VAT, but if you sold it to somebody else they could not. AFAIK Poignard took his boat to France years ago and still owns it. Where he has benefitted from the new rules is that the previous 3 year (with discretion) has been removed and there is now no time limit. Obviously the number of people this affects will decline over the years, but there have been signs of a significant number of boats that had been long term in the EU returning. The other important thing is that boats like yours and Poignards are potentially both EU and UK VAT paid so you could take them back and forth under RGR in each customs area and sell them in either with no VAT implications. However the new owners would not retain that duality.

I don't believe you are correct (and Mike is correct).

The indefinite arrangement for the original exporter to repatriate their boats is no longer so. Therefore, people like me who exported thier boats to the EU five years ago will need to pay VAT on their return.

 

[petem]

Apparently any UK insurer/broker who insures an EU flagged boat in Europe now needs an office in Europe. So the broker I was using can no longer insure my boat (as I paid Spanish IVA then it is effectively a Spanish flagged boat).

Sounds like nonsense to me!

 

[Tranona]

It does not have to say anything about RGR - that is a different issue and has been law since 1992 - the only change post Brexit was to remove the 3 year limit for leisure craft (it is still there for other goods). What that effectively did was make the almost automatic "discretion" a right.

What the campaign was trying to do was turn VAT into an asset tax - that is if you could prove that VAT was paid on the vessel in the UK then it would not have to "pay twice" if brought into the UK. this was of course rightly rejected. To claim RGR you do not have to "prove" VAT was paid in the UK, only that the boat was in the UK and then taken out at some point - then returned under the same ownership. VAT is a tax on transactions, not assets.

Poignard's boat illustrates this perfectly - it is an old boat on which VAT has never been paid. Its status was "deemed VAT paid" on the basis of age and being in the EU in 1992. It was actually in the UK while the UK was in the EU so could move freely and claim RGR anywhere in the then EU. Now it can stay and be sold anywhere in the EU or return to the UK under UK RGR. It can also move in and out of the EU under RGR rules if in the same ownership.

Another (and different) example. My first Bavaria I had delivered to Greece and eventually paid VAT in Greece. I then brought it to the UK (mooring alongside your boat in one of Robin's berths on the way!). 5 years later I sold it in the UK and the new owner and family took it to San Carles. Think they may have sold it in the EU, but they could have returned to the UK under RGR, even though VAT was not paid in the UK. it would meet the requirements of RGR.

To agree to what the CA/RYA wanted would have gone completely against VAT principles. Moving an asset from one customs area to another is a chargeable event unless you can use one of the reliefs. I suspect that some owners could use the returning residents relief to bring a boat they bought in the EU into the UK without paying VAT - but not if they are already UK residents.

Complicated stuff, but more easily understood when you go back to the principles.

Pretty sure my explanation is correct, but no doubt somebody more qualified will correct me!

 

[Tranona]

I don't believe you are correct (and Mike is correct).

The indefinite arrangement for the original exporter to repatriate their boats is no longer so. Therefore, people like me who exported thier boats to the EU five years ago will need to pay VAT on their return.

You are correct. But the articles are not about that as I explained.

 

[st599]

Sounds like nonsense to me!

What does the Brexit trade deal mean for financial services? - UK in a changing Europe

The TCA doesn't include financial services so a UK Insurer can't Insure an entity that's based in the EU.

 

[julians]

What does the Brexit trade deal mean for financial services? - UK in a changing Europe

The TCA doesn't include financial services so a UK Insurer can't Insure an entity that's based in the EU.

So I need to take out travel insurance with a Spanish travel insurance firm when I go on holiday, because a British firm can't insure me when I am in spain?


A British flagged boat is not an EU entity,like I am not an EU entity either.

 

[st599]

So I need to take out travel insurance with a Spanish travel insurance firm when I go on holiday, because a British firm can't insure me when I am in spain?


A British flagged boat is not an EU entity,like I am not an EU entity either.

The OP wasn't asking about a British flagged boat though: "Apparently any UK insurer/broker who insures an EU flagged boat in Europe now needs an office in Europe"